[Zelandakh]

The second hand is against the same pair but this time we are shifting over to the North seat:

---

A weak 6-5. But this time the colours are not so nice (Game All). Do you come in this time?

[32519]

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-14, 09:12, said:

The second hand is against the same pair but this time we are shifting over to the North seat:

---

A weak 6-5. But this time the colours are not so nice (Game All). Do you come in this time?

I posted a similar hand here. That one was Michael’s, yours is the Unusual 2NT. With the extra ♥, I enter the bidding despite the vulnerability. This may be your last chance to say something. Additionally your other thread says “aggressive style.” So be aggressive and enter the bidding.

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-14, 09:06, said:

Instead, you have adopted an aggressive bidding style to accentuate the importance of this part of the game at your table. Very few of the opponents are good at handling this style.

[JLOGIC]

You cannot pass, your hand is way too good. Whether you bid 1H or 2H is up to you against bad opps I always preempt but against better opps 1H has a lot going for it since they are far more likely to misplay the hand. But if you do this you need a partner who can handle a joke, if your partner is the type to start jumping to game and ripping them based on your vul overcall then you gotta go with 2H.

3H is a bid against very bad opps and with a partner who can take a joke but since your opps are fairly good I wouldn't do it. 3H is really an amazing preempt vs bad players though, but again, if your partner is gonna over save and expect a much better hand for 3H you cannot do that.

[Hanoi5]

2♥ seems correct as showing both red suits at this point and colours should surely be stronger. It's not that the hand looks like a great preempt being red, but the 5-card side suit gives it a boost nobody expects...

Spoiler

the Spanish Inquisition!

[straube]

For us 2N shows a better hand than this and emphasizes diamonds if anything. I'd expect to be playing diamonds if partner is 2/2 or even 1/1.

[nige1]

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-14, 09:12, said:

The second hand is against the same pair but this time we are shifting over to the North seat:
A weak 6-5. But this time the colours are not so nice (Game All). Do you come in this time?

---

IMO 2N = 10, 2♥ = 9, 3♥ = 8, 1♥ = 7. A close decision because 2♥ has the advantage of emphasising your main asset and giving away less information.

[Lord Molyb]

2NT = 2♥ = 10, 3♥ = 8, 1♥ = 6, 1♠ = 1 (why do you have that in the poll )

[TheoKole]

2 NT (red suits)

6-5, come alive is my motto.

Theo

[JLOGIC]

I'd rather bid 4H or pass than 2N. 2N is just the worst of all worlds, we make it easy for them to double us when we're in trouble, we tell them how to play it double dummy when most of the time we are not going to be declaring, we get us to the wrong red suit a lot of time, and if partner has a good hand heaven forbid he is likely to overbid. I mean we're committing to the 3 level vul in a dangerous way with no aces and no kings in order to emphasize our Qxxxx of diamonds. I'm willing to pay off to missing diamonds, how likely is it that it is our hand for diamonds?

[32519]

Following your theme of "aggressive bidding style," even with such poor values, the hand is better offensively than defensively. Others have suggested a ♥ overcall, whether 1♥, 2♥ or 3♥. JLOGIC went as high as 4♥.

So now you can post the full hand and we can see what actually happened at the table.

[Cyberyeti]

JLOGIC, on 2013-May-14, 22:33, said:

I'd rather bid 4H or pass than 2N. 2N is just the worst of all worlds, we make it easy for them to double us when we're in trouble, we tell them how to play it double dummy when most of the time we are not going to be declaring, we get us to the wrong red suit a lot of time, and if partner has a good hand heaven forbid he is likely to overbid. I mean we're committing to the 3 level vul in a dangerous way with no aces and no kings in order to emphasize our Qxxxx of diamonds. I'm willing to pay off to missing diamonds, how likely is it that it is our hand for diamonds?

I came unstuck following this theory earlier in the week, I was 6-5, partner was 1-5 and by bidding the first suit, partner never entered the auction, -660 to go with -790 from the other table wasn't good.

The danger is not that it's our hand for diamonds necessarily, but give partner xxxx, x, AKxxx, xxx, 5♦x is -1, you have no defence to 6♣ or 6♠, 1♣-2N-?-5♦ puts a lot of pressure on and may bury the spade suit, if they bid 6♣ then 6♦x is cheaper than game.

[Fluffy]

I think its pass or 3♥ if we are gonna hide the diamonds we rather do it an a level where it matches our ODR. I am pussy who passes but on you COC for agresivenes 3♥ looks right.

[Codo]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-May-15, 00:46, said:

I came unstuck following this theory earlier in the week, I was 6-5, partner was 1-5 and by bidding the first suit, partner never entered the auction, -660 to go with -790 from the other table wasn't good.

The danger is not that it's our hand for diamonds necessarily, but give partner xxxx, x, AKxxx, xxx, 5♦x is -1, you have no defence to 6♣ or 6♠, 1♣-2N-?-5♦ puts a lot of pressure on and may bury the spade suit, if they bid 6♣ then 6♦x is cheaper than game.

So, if you find a table, where partner holds a ton of diamonds AND opponents, who cannot find a slam with a ton of tricks, 2 NT can work? I guess we can all agree.

[Cyberyeti]

Codo, on 2013-May-15, 05:38, said:

So, if you find a table, where partner holds a ton of diamonds AND opponents, who cannot find a slam with a ton of tricks, 2 NT can work? I guess we can all agree.

It's not easy for them if they only get one or two bids as partner will whack 5♦ on the table and the likely continuation is 6♣-6♦-X and they never find the 4-4 spade suit as you go for 500.

[JLOGIC]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-May-15, 00:46, said:

I came unstuck following this theory earlier in the week, I was 6-5, partner was 1-5 and by bidding the first suit, partner never entered the auction, -660 to go with -790 from the other table wasn't good.

The danger is not that it's our hand for diamonds necessarily, but give partner xxxx, x, AKxxx, xxx, 5♦x is -1, you have no defence to 6♣ or 6♠, 1♣-2N-?-5♦ puts a lot of pressure on and may bury the spade suit, if they bid 6♣ then 6♦x is cheaper than game.

I am not saying it is impossible. To requote myself: I'm willing to pay off to missing diamonds, how likely is it that it is our hand for diamonds?

Yes, if partner has AKxxx of diamonds I have lost that bet. But, I mean, come on look at our hand, again I ask how likely is it that we need to play in diamonds?

The fact that you think 5D X is automatically down only one shows me that you might not be thinking about how hard setting up hearts and running them will be. Even opposite your example hand, if they tap dummy, you play the HQ from dummy, they tap dummy again, you ruff a heart, you are going to need 3-3 hearts for down 1 (as well as 2-2 diamonds obv).

My point is not that we don't want to be in 5D opposite that hand, but imagine the difficulties if we still need 3-3 hearts opposite FIVE trumps to the AK that we will face if partner bids 5D with 4 trumps.

I don't think anyone would fault partner for bidding with xxx x AKxx Axxxx. Despite only having 2 losers you are in some major trouble here obviously. Most of the time you're going to end up with something like 7 diamond tricks and the CA for down 3 on best defense (it's possible if you're lucky you are able to do a dummy reversal and score 4 ruffs in the dummy and 4 trumps in your hand but you need a lot to go right).

That is what happens when we have no aces and king and 5 bad trumps.

The fact that we might still belong in diamonds sometimes does not mean it's right to bid 2N. The downsides seem very obvious and frequent to me and the upside seems very infrequent but to each their own I guess.

[gszes]

AHHHHHHH MP where if you go for -2000 opposite a part score
it is no worse than -200 opposite a part score. This pile of rubbish
is almost never going to be worth anything but a sac so the question
is do we go for the "disruptive" effects of a 2n 1/2/3/4 heart bid (we paid
our enty fee and we can do whatever we want) or do we go silent and
wait to see if bidding is a worthwhile endeavor.

I am voting for pass mainly because our hand meets none of the
criteria I use to preempt/bid vulnerable.
1. The heart suit isn't good enough though its close if the heart 2 were
the T I would be a ton happier.
2. The hand can play well in either dia or hearts and a preemptive heart bid
goes a long way to burying diamonds.
3. There is virtually zero danger the bidding will subside in 1c with us having
so little power.
4. I personally don't think it would be a shame if i had a hand with some
surprise value.

Adopt these light actions at your partnerships peril. Most of us play this game
to exercise our brains and while we want to win most of us aren't all that happy
when we win mostly due to blind luck vs skill. It is not a crime to pass. Lets listen
and see if p can do anything if p is silent we might still be able to stick our neck out
on the next round of bidding and at the least not preempt p too much.

[Zelandakh]

My partner did overcall 2♥ on this hand (I would have done the same) and it continued P - P - X - AP. She struggled manfully to -800 (DD would be -1100) but that was only 2/14 (one pair got to 3♦X-4). If you pass then the opps probably reach 3NT, which the DD solver says is 11 tricks but in practise was 8-10 tricks, for an average board. My (South) hand was:
♠ J8754
♥ 3
♦ 854
♣ KDT3

East had ♠KT32 /♥AK874 /♦K7 /♣64 and this was probably the only pair in the field where a trap pass would be possible.

[FrancesHinden]

32519, on 2013-May-14, 09:49, said:

I posted a similar hand here. That one was Michael’s, yours is the Unusual 2NT. With the extra ♥, I enter the bidding despite the vulnerability. This may be your last chance to say something. Additionally your other thread says “aggressive style.” So be aggressive and enter the bidding.

There are three huge differences between this hand and the one you posted.
(i) the vulnerability is completely different
(ii) on your hand it was possible to show both suits at the 2-level, here you have to show both suits at the 3-level
(iiii) showing any two - suiter including spades is always preferable to showing any other two-suiter because you can win a level lower (I know this overlaps with 2 a bit)

I'd go for a penalty in 2H here.
Note that JLOGIC's 3H call probably wins, because responder may well not dare to pass for penalties

[PhilKing]

Looks like 1♥ was the winner - this way dealer!