[jeffford76]

Matchpoints, club game

---

-870. What proportion of the blame to east and west, and what was the worst call?

[CSGibson]

I don't like 1N or the pass of a 1N overcall (which should have a higher threshold than 1N openers; a good 15-18 is standard). I'd have to know our agreements to know how I feel about X of 2♥; if double is take-out I'm ok with the first X, if it is penalty oriented then I don't like it. Either way, I really don't like the double of 3♣ with only 3, and with dummy's marked spade shortage; partner could have doubled if doubling was right.

In my opinion, though, the worst call was 1N. I would have preferred (in order) X or pass before 1N. To forestall questions, I would pass any club calls by partner & hope for the best.

I apportion blame as about 50-50. Neither E nor W bid well in my opinion, and if either had made different choices, the result would have been different.

[mikeh]

The 1N reminds me of a KO match 20 years ago in a Fall Nationals in Seattle. We played a team boasting 2 of the top 5 in the Crane contest, late in the year. 7 board match: about board 3, rho makes a dubiuous 1N overcall, and we collect 1700 when the smoke cleared.

Next hand, I make a dubious 1N overcall, and they collect 1700. Not exactly a push but it turned out that we lost exactly the same on our -1700 as we gained on the +1700, so I always argue that it was just a couple of push boards.

As you will infer from my telling this story, I really don't like the 1N. Partner is a passed hand so there is little likelihood of game making, with some high likelihood of disaster, which can come on this type of hand in many guises. Either LHO starts hammering now or partner, thinking you have a good hand, invites or just drives to 3N, and you lose in the 100's or more, should they double. I know it is matchpoints and that partner won't stretch for a thin game, but he could have a decent 9 count, and you show 15-18. Meanwhile, even if you get to play undoubled, down 100 or 200 seems a high risk, and 200 will be horrible while 100 may not be that good either: you do have decent defence and if you can make 6 tricks in NT, you may take 6 on defence, while if you make 1N, you might have +100 against 1♠.

The actual disaster is only partly attributable to the 1N, however. East lost his mind doubling 2♥! And then, convinced by his double of 2♥ that the opps were going down, he doubled again.

Imo, West should pass 1♠, but having perpetrated a bad bid, he was hung out to dry by East.

I am not a fan of 2♥, btw. Partner suggested 10+ black cards and we run to Q10xxxx?? Red??? But it 'worked' so can't take 'blame'.

Btw, I am perfectly ok with passing 1N as E, with an indifferent 8 count. Yes, we may miss a game, but that doesn't worry me overly much given that we are at mps: I would definitely invite at imps. At mps, I'd be worried that we only have the 1 spade stopper, and, if so, we are almost never making 3N. Indeed, even with 2 spade stoppers and a spade lead, we will often be down if partner has Kx or xx or even xxx in diamonds. Risk reward balance doesn't warrant pushing.

[JLOGIC]

1N is horrible and pass of 1N is horrible, but apparently east knew wests style so maybe it's not so horrible lol.

After that I am of the opinion that ripping them is absolutely fine. You know they are having a silly auction when they bid 2H and have a misfit (LHO suggested lots of black cards, RHO who could not bid 2H non forcing over 1N is now bidding 2H), and have at most 17 HCP and maybe as few as 15, and they are vul at MP. Once they run to 3C what else are you gonna do but rip it.

East just ran into south having the complete nuts (which is also very unexpected when he passed 2H lol, how can he be 6-5 with good spades) and partner having a 14 count. That said I would die a little on the inside if I ended up +100 with this hand opposite a 1N overcall at MP and I think that is fairly likely.

1N to me is a really massive horrible error and clearly the worst bid.

[JLOGIC]

mikeh, on 2013-May-08, 15:01, said:

Btw, I am perfectly ok with passing 1N as E, with an indifferent 8 count. Yes, we may miss a game, but that doesn't worry me overly much given that we are at mps: I would definitely invite at imps. At mps, I'd be worried that we only have the 1 spade stopper, and, if so, we are almost never making 3N. Indeed, even with 2 spade stoppers and a spade lead, we will often be down if partner has Kx or xx or even xxx in diamonds. Risk reward balance doesn't warrant pushing.

Heh, I knew you would hate the doubles, it's not really your style of bridge which is fine obv, but I'm surprised that you're ok with the pass of 1N. I would 100 % agree with your analysis if it was a 1N opener, but don't we all routinely overcall 1N with 18? And pass some 15s? I think 8 almost any 8 should be worth a bid, certainly one with a good 5 card suit (though the rest of it is pretty suspect obviously), we just can't afford to not invite when partner will accept when we have 25-26 HCP games at any form of scoring imo.

Honestly I would think that a 1N overcall on the bottom end is something like .5 to .75 points higher than a 1N opener (depending on your upgrading tendencies) and the upper range is a full point heavier, and I would guess that would be true for you too vul opp a passed hand. So to me passing with this type of hand is similar to passing a 9 count opposite a 1N opener which I would never knew. To me it seems inconsistent to hate the 1N as much as you do (which I 100 % agree with) and still pass with the east hand.

That said, maybe east knew west overcalls 1N vul opposite a passed hand like this.

[SteveMoe]

Maybe East's pass belies seeing weak NT overcalls from partner before.

I hate 1N, I hate North's first pass, and I hate East's second double.

So I put it at 45% West, 10% North and 45% East.

[jeffford76]

I just realized after reading Justin's response that I left a bid out. Apologies - the actual auction had south bidding 2♠ over the double of 2♥. I'm not going to change the one above since people already responded to it.

[mikeh]

JLOGIC, on 2013-May-08, 16:32, said:

Heh, I knew you would hate the doubles, it's not really your style of bridge which is fine obv, but I'm surprised that you're ok with the pass of 1N. I would 100 % agree with your analysis if it was a 1N opener, but don't we all routinely overcall 1N with 18? And pass some 15s? I think 8 almost any 8 should be worth a bid, certainly one with a good 5 card suit (though the rest of it is pretty suspect obviously), we just can't afford to not invite when partner will accept when we have 25-26 HCP games at any form of scoring imo.

Honestly I would think that a 1N overcall on the bottom end is something like .5 to .75 points higher than a 1N opener (depending on your upgrading tendencies) and the upper range is a full point heavier, and I would guess that would be true for you too vul opp a passed hand. So to me passing with this type of hand is similar to passing a 9 count opposite a 1N opener which I would never knew. To me it seems inconsistent to hate the 1N as much as you do (which I 100 % agree with) and still pass with the east hand.

That said, maybe east knew west overcalls 1N vul opposite a passed hand like this.

I may have been unconsciously influenced by the hand, but E's holding of xxx worries me. I don't think your analogy of a 1N opening, but with an upside of 18, is persuasive.

Statistically, 18 will occur far less than 15 or 16 so most of the time the 1N is in the 15-17 range, but if that were my main argument, I'd concede that it isn't enough. My main argument is that when partner opens 1N, and we have 9 hcp (and I would never pass now), we're dealing with a blank slate with respect to the likely opening lead and source of defensive tricks. When a player opens in 2nd seat, then unless they play 4 card majors (which is rare in NA), we can be fairly sure that the opening lead will be a spade and that LHO has at least 5 of them. IOW, we know that they are going to lead the suit that rates to be best for them, and that the hand with the defensive entries has the length in the suit.

Of course, on some layouts a spade lead is wonderful for us, but on the whole the spade rates, on this type of hand, to be good for them. Close contracts often depend for success or failure on tempo. My take is that here, when I hold xxx in spades, a spade lead rates to gain a tempo for the defence. Had partner been in first chair and opened 1N, I wouldn't have that concern (I would invite with this 8 opposite 15-17, let alone 15-18 were our 1N opening to show that range).



Add to this that it is mps, and I'm 'ok' with the pass.

That isn't to say that I would 'hate' a call inviting 3N: I think it is reasonable and so borderline that I might or might not have made it if the hand came up at the table. I play with at least one partner who would laugh at the idea of passing

[JLOGIC]

Your points about partner being less likely in general to be at the top of their range, and especially once we know one guy has an opening bid, are well taken. Also that they will get off to a good lead and defense.

I will only counter that it also works in our favor when we know one guy has most or all of the points. We can play double dummy, and many finesses etc are going to be through the strong hand (in this case a diamond finesse would be bad but our jack and queen are looking better as finesses through the strong hand).

I think that often gives us an edge we don't have, strip squeezes and endplays galore! If partner has 1 spade stop he will know that is not good also, and he will know to upgrade a holding like KJx so we might even get to a lighter game than normal making because partner knows his values are well placed.

IDK, it's also entirely possible I'm too aggressive, or that I'm biased by my own style of overcalling 1N very soundly in this spot (r/r at MP means if we pass and defend that is often ok in the +100 vs +90 spots or -90 vs -100 spots, and the risk of going for 200 is very high (and we might get 200 against our partscore by not bidding). I will frequently pass or double with random 15s in that situation but maybe that is abnormal. I'm sure it will come as a shock that there's a spot where I'm way more conservative than most people

[nige1]

jeffford76 writes "Matchpoints, club game -870. What proportion of the blame to east and west, and what was the worst call?

IMO:
- West over (1♠): 1N = 7, P = 10, X = 8.
- East over (2♥): X = 10, P = 7.
- West over (2♥)X: P = 10.
- East over (3♣): X = 8, P = 10.
- West over (3♣)X: P = 10, 3♦ = 8.
Hence, IMO, neither player was much at fault. The operation was succesful but the patient died.

---

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 1NT - I am all for light 1NT overcalls, but the given hand is too weak,
but as long as the partnership agrees, this is ok, the bid is ok
#2 X of 2H is ok, as long as it is T/O
#3 Passing the T/O is fine

#2 + #3 generated most likely a F/P sequence for E/W, hence the final double

Maybe West can run / bid 3D, knowing, he happens to be dead min, if this
happened at IMPs, facing a partner below inv. strength, but given that this
is MP, I dont know - you may collect 200.

With kind regards
Marlowe