[benlessard]

---

Imps but Mp is interesting too.


How agressive are your double aftner partner made a trap pass ?

Do you play some sort of forcing passes ?

[dake50]

This is nearly a typical reopening minimum. I told that story. Pass.
Give me H:Q108x and I like my chances to score a 2nd trump, now Dbl.
I'm leaning to "if partner tried trap pass, he suggests defend and doubled."

[ggwhiz]

dake50, on 2013-May-06, 23:02, said:

Give me H:Q108x and I like my chances to score a 2nd trump, now Dbl.

I like my chances for 3nt better with your example than the actual hearts. Double or pass should include one or the other but I have no idea which.

Partners trap pass confirms that it is our hand so pass is forcing for us and double is weaker as in I'm not convinced we have a game.

[gszes]

never tell the same story twice-----as stated earlier we are minimum for
our TOX and p can very easily have a hand that was only good for defending
1d x by the opps.

PASS

Who knows maybe p will be strong enough to bid 2h looking for a stop for 3n
or they can x to show extra values hoping to defend 1h x or they may even
be able to bid 2d to play. An x here will take take away a vital weapon from
partners arsenal of bids and we are doing it w/o even having decent hearts.

[gnasher]

ggwhiz, on 2013-May-07, 15:10, said:

Partners trap pass confirms that it is our hand so pass is forcing for us and double is weaker as in I'm not convinced we have a game.

Partner didn't necessarily make a trap pass. So far all we know is that he prefers to play for seven tricks in diamonds than for seven tricks in some other strain. What do you want him to do with xxx x QJxxxx Kxx ?

[benlessard]

IMO south can double 1H.

For me south hand has extras, in balance everybody is going to double with he same hand without the K of S and its probably good to double with Kxxx,Qxxx,x,Qxxx too.

Of course north can have a diamonds stack and a pretty weak hand but in average hes going to have close to 10 pts. West didnt xx and if they play a strong NT hes either 12-14 bal wich mean its our hand or hes unbalanced. If west is unbalanced and short in heart 1Hx look good and if hes short elsewhere than partner can pull out there or in 2D. Even if the points are split partner D over opener D are a nice plus.

If EW play a weak NT there it make sense to wait for a slightly better hand to double.

[PhilKing]

Glad we could help.

[JLOGIC]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-11, 17:33, said:

Glad we could help.

lol I think I wanna upvote every post you make but this is perfect

[JLOGIC]

This thread reminds me of this hand: http://www.worldbrid...F.885&qphase=QF

At our table the auction was 1D (precision) X p p XX p 1H p p X p p 1S X AP.

The double of 1S with A98x was heavily criticized, and obviously thats way better than Qxxx. It didn't work very well either.

[PhilKing]

JLOGIC, on 2013-May-11, 18:02, said:

This thread reminds me of this hand: http://www.worldbrid...F.885&qphase=QF

At our table the auction was 1D (precision) X p p XX p 1H p p X p p 1S X AP.

The double of 1S with A98x was heavily criticized, and obviously thats way better than Qxxx. It didn't work very well either.

Standard Fredin double. If he had passed 1♥, he would have scored a goal, but I assume you just stopped off in a 4-2 fit to own him.

[benlessard]

To compare both auction is simply ridiculous and im pretty sure you know it.

This mean that instead of contributing anything you just want to send a cheap shot.

[JLOGIC]

benlessard, on 2013-May-12, 09:10, said:

To compare both auction is simply ridiculous and im pretty sure you know it.

This mean that instead of contributing anything you just want to send a cheap shot.

Huh?

[PhilKing]

benlessard, on 2013-May-12, 09:10, said:

To compare both auction is simply ridiculous and im pretty sure you know it.

This mean that instead of contributing anything you just want to send a cheap shot.

He contributed a hand from Word Championship play where Fredin had a chance to pass out them out in One Heart with a minimum double (+100 instead of -560).

The auctions are not exactly a million miles removed.

[JLOGIC]

My intention was not to cheap shot Fredin though maybe posting one of their bad board was in poor taste. I am a huge Fredin fan.

I was just reminded of this hand because this is the danger of playing that passing 1m Xed creates a forcing pass, the passer has not really shown anything as gnasher pointed out, he could just have 6 reasonable diamonds and not that much. If we then must go doubling on mediocre 4 card suits at the 1 level, it seems theoretically unsound.

I think they used to discuss whether this created a forcing pass in the bridge world, and the majority thought it did, though I could be remembering badly as it was a long time ago. I guess the idea is to nail them at the 1 level when they're in a 7 card fit (if you don't double with Qxxx, your partner is not going to double with a doubleton). I still don't think Qxxx is a desirable holding with which to double or that we should be in a force.

That said, I don't see why it is a cheap shot or a ridiculous comparison. The opponents could still have more high cards than us and RHO has shown 5 hearts which makes doubling way less attractive than if they were in a 4-3.

[JLOGIC]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-12, 09:17, said:

He contributed a hand from Word Championship play where Fredin had a chance to pass out them out in One Heart with a minimum double (+100 instead of -560).

The auctions are not exactly a million miles removed.

Maybe/probably they play that pass creates a forcing pass, in which case this could be caused by what imo is a flaw in the agreements rather than judgement.

[PhilKing]

JLOGIC, on 2013-May-12, 09:23, said:

I think they used to discuss whether this created a forcing pass in the bridge world, and the majority thought it did, though I could be remembering badly as it was a long time ago.

In August 1992 most considered it forcing. You hold: ♠K53 ♥JT8742 ♦A6 ♣J8
on the auction 1HPPXPP2CPP.

By March 2004, the auction was officially considered non-forcing in BWS in the context of discussing ♠AQT9 ♥AQJ3 ♦KT4 ♣62 on the auction: 1CXPPXXP1DPP.

But those are the only ones I can remember of the top of my head!

[JLOGIC]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-12, 09:45, said:

In August 1992 most considered it forcing. You hold: ♠K53 ♥JT8742 ♦A6 ♣J8
on the auction 1HPPXPP2CPP.

By March 2004, the auction was officially considered non-forcing in BWS in the context of discussing ♠AQT9 ♥AQJ3 ♦KT4 ♣62 on the auction: 1CXPPXXP1DPP.

But those are the only ones I can remember of the top of my head!

Yeah I think I was thinking of one in the 90s, good work

[benlessard]

Quote

The auctions are not exactly a million miles removed.

Its a balancing double vs a direct double with a major screw ups. Not a million miles away but not in the same country.

Sorry to state the obvious but the balancing double can be made with less strenght and the pass by North (responder) show weakness so the odds of owning the hand is not at all the same. I have some extras Fredin is dead minimum. Like you said the only reason he double 1H and 1S is that he think hes playing FP. But clearly East tought they were NOT playing forcing passes otherwise he would never have pass 1Sx with Q,Jxx,Axxxxx,Txx. Even if not playing FP i think passing 1Sx is bad. My guess is that since south showned a 4243 (pulling to 1S instead of XX) east didnt feel safe in 2Dx.


I think forcing pass are poor in balancing seat and in direct seat. In MP they are a bit better but i wouldnt touch them.


http://bridgewinners...g-problem-1214/

Some play that X a run out after the penalty pass show a stronger takeout of D (4315 and 16 pts) some expect that the double show a X and bid hand or great trumps. IMO this is simply clueless. A FP style is too agressive but waiting to have 6 pts extras or a 5th trumps to double is chicken big time.

Anyway the fact that 34% passed a one level double with a stiff mean a lot of players have no agreements on those doubles.

[JLOGIC]

Passout seat is different than balancing seat, you're right. But I think saying theyre not comparable and that I'm taking a cheap shot is too far. I was genuinely just remmebering a hand where FP didn't work out in this *kind* of auction.

Didn't mean any offense to you or Fredin or anything, was just trying to have a discussion. Sorry if any offense was taken, was honestly not intended. And yes, sometimes I am trying to be rude or a dick on purpose but I usually admit it so hopefully you believe me in this case

[PhilKing]

Trying to bury them at the one-level is hard. Here is another one from my archive:

---

West: Cohen North: Moss East: Berkowitz South: Gitelman

West decides South probably has a weak NT and North a balanced pile and issues what I call a "parking ticket" (a penalty pass based on a combination of points, controls, vulnerability and a lack of good alternatives, but lacking good trumps). Here, it was a semi-bluff and induced North to run (how could he not?).

Clearly, Cohen/Berkowitz play the pass as forcing hence pass and double. Sadly the defence went awry and got only 500 - click on the diagram. It seems to me East was signalling for diamonds, which gets 1100, but South repped Txxx to muddy things for Cohen. Note that it is the good pips that makes it possible for E/W to collect a huge penalty - trying it with bad pips is a usually a mugs game.

My view is that West can smack 1♠ on the logic of the auction lacking a forcing pass. It's still a potential 800 without the pips.

Back to the OP, the bottom line is, you generally need to be able to draw trumps in order to incinerate them, and Qxxx just ain't going to cut it, even with a huge 11-count.

Edit - modified to include final double.