[TMorris]

At IMPs the auction to you goes

(3♥) x (p)

and you have

♠ AQxxxxx
♥ xx
♦ AJx
♣ Q

where do you go from here?

[Fluffy]

I try 5♠ asking for heart control, yes a bit pushy, and we could paly 6♠ with 2 aces missing or ♦KQ and no possible pitch, but nothing seems better to me.

[TMorris]

Thanks. Could you explain why 5 ♠ asks for a heart control rather than asking how good partner's spades are?

[mikeh]

TMorris, on 2013-May-01, 09:59, said:

Thanks. Could you explain why 5 ♠ asks for a heart control rather than asking how good partner's spades are?

You have to make a choice: classically the choice has been to use a bid of 5 of the agreed-upon major to ask for control in a suit that has not been cuebid.

For example, in an uncontested auction, in which spades had been agreed and both minors were cuebid, a bid of 5♠ would ask about hearts. Modern bidding is such that one will rarely see that sort of auction anymore.

More commonly we have auctions similar to this one, in which the opps have interfered, often premptively and thus depriving us of needed bidding space. We cannot set trump here and start cue-bidding: 3♠ and 4♠ are both non-forcing and we lack the room to cue and then bid spades, even if it were forcing.

Spades are agreed here by inference: partner's takeout double will always deliver some spades for us.

Historically, this jump asks for control of their suit, by analogy to the uncontested auction idea described above.

Why? My thinking is that it is a frequency issue. If we have trump good enough to look for slam, and can't keycard for some reason, we will often survive not knowing how good partner's trump are. This hand is a classic example. Even if partner's spades are xxxx we have an excellent chance of no losers. Otoh, when we lack a control in their suit, the double carries zero inference of a control, so we are in grave danger of a bad outcome if we just blast.

Bridge is full of these situations, in which one could plausibly argue for either of two or any of more interpretations of a call or a carding, and yet the call or the carding cannot carry more than one meaning. While the dead hand of history sometimes gets us playing an inferior method (such as the fact that most NA players use standard count and attitude), the evolutionary arms race that is bridge theory usually results in the most efficient meaning prevailing. Here, that appear to be using the unsolicited jump to ask about the opps' suit.

[gszes]

TMorris, on 2013-May-01, 09:59, said:

Thanks. Could you explain why 5 ♠ asks for a heart control rather than asking how good partner's spades are?

This is based on the theory that if you need to ask about trump suit quality at the 5 level there is a realistic chance
your side is already too high. It is a very reasonable interpretation to play 5s to set the trump suit and ask p to
focus on what is probably the main deterrent to bidding slam ie hearts.

[jallerton]

TMorris, on 2013-May-01, 09:59, said:

Thanks. Could you explain why 5 ♠ asks for a heart control rather than asking how good partner's spades are?

Unless you have specific agreements about alternative sequences, it shouldn't mean either of these things. Without discussion, 5♠ should be a general invitation, asking partner to use his or her judgement rather than focusing on a single feature of his or her hand.

In uncontested auctions, there is usually plenty of room to investigate slam; if a player jumps to 5M then this jump can be assigned a specific meaning (typically, ask for good trumps, or ask for a control in a particular suit) because all other hands can find another call (e.g. cue bid, last train, 4M having already implied a slam try through earlier bidding, RKCB).

After, (3♥)-dbl-(P), our first duty is to tell partner what suit we want to play in. There's simply not room to cater for all slam invitational hands in spades by assigning such a specific meaning to 5♠. Hence 5♠ is best played as a general invitation in my view.

Mike mentions the inference that you failed to use RKCB. Does he play (3♥)-dbl-(P)-4NT as RKCB setting spades as trumps?

I suppose a partnership could agree to play (3♥)-dbl-(P)-5♥ as a slam try in spades with a heart control, but if a partnership had this level of sophistication in their agreements, they'd be better off playing that (3♥)-dbl-(P)-5♠ shows a heart control and that(3♥)-dbl-(P)-5♥ shows spades but denies a heart control, in case 4th hand's heart holding is Kx.

[Zelandakh]

Mike/Jeffrey, on a purely theoretical/pratical level, is there any reason we could not use a 4♥ cue followed by 5♠ to ask for a heart control and a direct 5♠ as a general try (with a heart control)? That would free up a direct 5♥ jump for something else such as a void.

[gnasher]

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-15, 06:24, said:

Mike/Jeffrey, on a purely theoretical/pratical level, is there any reason we could not use a 4♥ cue followed by 5♠ to ask for a heart control and a direct 5♠ as a general try (with a heart control)? That would free up a direct 5♥ jump for something else such as a void.

Initially 4♥ asks partner whether he has four spades, so that you can bid a 4243 10-count sensibly. If he bids 4♠ and you now make a slam try, you might have a hand with only four spades, rather than a hand that always knew it belonged in spades.

That may not matter, though. You can bid 4♥-4♠-5♠ without a heart control and 4♥-4♠-5♥ with a heart control (or vice versa). Partner won't know if you have a balanced hand or a lot of spades, but he will just evaluate his hand in the context of what he's already shown. This isn't perfect, because he may think trump honours are important when they're not.

It's murkier if partner doesn't bid 4♠. 4♥-4NT-5♥ and 4♥-4NT-5♠ still sound like spade hands, but 4♥-5♣-5♥ ought to be a grand-slam try with clubs as trumps.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2013-May-15, 06:44

[cherdano]

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-15, 06:24, said:

Mike/Jeffrey, on a purely theoretical/pratical level, is there any reason we could not use a 4♥ cue followed by 5♠ to ask for a heart control and a direct 5♠ as a general try (with a heart control)? That would free up a direct 5♥ jump for something else such as a void.

I would always understand it the other way round: 4H then 5S is a slam try with a heart control. A direct 5S is a slam try without a heart control. I think on this auction we just about have the space to make this distinction - over (3S) X, I think 5H is just any one-suited slam try in hearts.

[JLOGIC]

Putting all together the jallerton-zelandakh-gnasher-cherdano posts:

I think we can play 4H then 5S is a spade slam try with a heart control (over any non 4S bid from partner, yes over 5m 5H is a grand slam try in that minor, but 5S can be retained as slamming in spades with a heart control, at little loss...losing a spade cuebid over a minor). Over 4S from partner we can simply bid 5H with the control, 5S without one (as we might have just discovered our spade fit).

5S direct as a slam try in spades with no control.