[Joel_B]

The 2C opening in precision clubs is usually one of those:

♥/♠: xxxx
♣: xxxxx

Or;

♣: xxxxxx (and denying xxxx in ♥/♠)

But, what would you open with this hand:

♠ AQxx
♥ Qx
♦ J
♣ AQxxxx

2C? If so, how do you respond on a 2D from partner?

[ArtK78]

The definition of the "classic" Precision 2♣ opening is 6+ clubs or 5+ clubs with a four card major.

There is no prohibition on opening 2♣ just because you have an extra club to go along with your 4 card major.

If the responses to 2♦ ask you to bid a 4 card major, then bid it. You may have a chance to show your extra club later, if it becomes advisable to do so.

The more difficult issue is when you have 7 clubs and a 4 card major. I would still show the major, but I would definitely show club length later on in the auction.

Of course, there are probably more sophisticated response structures than the one provided in the original Precision Club system as I learned it in the early 70s (and I haven't played Precision since then).

[cnszsun]

In some popular precision system, 2C opening promises 6+ clubs even with 4 majors. So, with 5clubs+4majors, it has to be opened 1D or 2D or1NT maybe. I wonder what's the reason behind it?

[NickRW]

cnszsun, on 2013-April-30, 08:07, said:

In some popular precision system, 2C opening promises 6+ clubs even with 4 majors. So, with 5clubs+4majors, it has to be opened 1D or 2D or1NT maybe. I wonder what's the reason behind it?

With 6 clubs, with or without a major, you're more likely to be opening in your correct, final denomination. Quite a high percentage of the time, responder has to pass an intermediate 2C opener for lack of strength and lack of preparedness for possible rebids. Thus major fits can be lost (in the same way, after a NT opener, especially the weak variety, bidding can go pass-pass-pass and miss a major fit). If you have 6 clubs, then it is more likely that clubs is an OK place to be.

This is particularly a concern at match points.

Nick

[mycroft]

With 6 clubs, you are much better placed to compete than if it "could be only 5, depending on whether there's a major". As others have said, you can always *have* a major with your 6 clubs, and the system should be designed to find that out, when it's your hand. When it's even, you've "won" by taking the 1-level away from the opponents, but you've also taken the 1-level away from your side to find out if it's "real" clubs or not. Knowing that it's "bid and rebid clubs" already makes up for that.

You won't get to play 2♣ very often :-)

[TylerE]

Modern style (ala Precision Today) seems to be shifting towards 2♣ always being a six-bagger. I think this is generally a good move. Good responses can go a long way, and I'm not at all sure the classical natural responses are best. A key point is wether the 2♦ bid actually promises values (at least inv, say), or could it just be a scramble. I think if 2♣ could be 5, 2♦ has to be much more wideranging, but promising 6 it should always be values, as a minimum misfitting hand can just pass - even a 6-0 isn't that bad.

Given 2♦ as inv as better, something like the following could perhaps work

2[he]/2[sp] = Natural, minimum, NF
  3[di] = Natural, slam try
  3M = shortness ask
    cheapest bid of suit = singleton
    3N = no shortness
    4[cl] = Unknown void, 4[di] asks
2NT = Maximum
  3[cl] - relay
    3[di] - No major
      3[he] - relay
        3[sp] - Unknown singleton
        3N - no shortness
        4c - 2=2=2=7
        4x - Void
    3[he] - 4[he]
      3[sp] asks shortness
        3N = none
        4[cl]=unknown void (4[di] asks, 4x = void suit, 4N = [di] void)
        4x = singleton
      3N - to play
    3[sp] - 4[sp], no shortness
    3NT - 4[sp], shortness
      4[cl] asks
        4x = shortness
3[cl] = Minimum, no major
  3[di] = shortness relay
    3M = singleton
    3N = no shortness
    4[cl] = [di] singleton
    4[di]/[he]/[sp] = Void
3[di] = 5[di]-6[cl]+

[chasetb]

♠ AQxx ♥Qx ♦J ♣AQxxxx ALWAYS opens 2♣ in classic/regular Precision.

I still play that 2♣ could be 5♣-4M, but I have the stipulation that if you only have 5 Clubs, you better be ready to play in 2♣ on a 5-1 fit (partner might have Qxxx Qxxx QJxx x). This way, you don't have to worry if Opener 'only' has 5, since it will be a great suit.

[PrecisionL]

TylerE said:

always being a six-bagger. I think this is generally a good move. Good responses can go a long way, and I'm not at all sure the classical natural responses are best. A key point is wether the 2♦ bid actually promises values (at least inv, say), or could it just be a scramble. I think if 2♣ could be 5, 2♦ has to be much more wideranging, but promising 6 it should always be values, as a minimum misfitting hand can just pass - even a 6-0 isn't that bad.

Yes, Several of my partnerships play 2♣ promises 6-cards without a 4-cd major. We play conditional transfer responses over this opening and find this works really well (opener refuses the transfer with 0-1 cards).
With a 4-cd major and ♣, we open 1♦.

[PhilKing]

Question for those that play 2♣ as showing a six-card suit.

Is it right to play negative doubles when they wander in with a two-level overcall? For those reading between the lines, I missed an 800 penalty on Friday.

My idea of best defence here is:

Double = cooperative penalty double. Partner passes unless short
Pass = full blown penalty double or a pass
2NT = puppet to 3♣ (comp or GF)
3♣ = relay, does not promise fit (can stop 4♣)
Cue = looking for 3NT with fit (can stop 4♣)

This gets you all the penalties and more, all your 4-4 fits, and does not risk wrong-siding 3NT. All I give up is being able to make a negative double for the other major and still stop in 3♣.

[straube]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-28, 07:19, said:

Question for those that play 2♣ as showing a six-card suit.

Is it right to play negative doubles when they wander in with a two-level overcall? For those reading between the lines, I missed an 800 penalty on Friday.

My idea of best defence here is:

Double = cooperative penalty double. Partner passes unless short
Pass = full blown penalty double or a pass
2NT = puppet to 3♣ (comp or GF)
3♣ = relay, does not promise fit (can stop 4♣)
Cue = looking for 3NT with fit (can stop 4♣)

This gets you all the penalties and more, all your 4-4 fits, and does not risk wrong-siding 3NT. All I give up is being able to make a negative double for the other major and still stop in 3♣.

We play something very similar to this. Dbl promises an invitational or better hand without a big club fit (not four or more) and puts us in a force through 3C. I.e. opener can pass or if opener rebids 2M or 2N he expects responder to bid again. Dbl by responder can be prelude to showing a GF hand with a 5-cd major.

Our immediate raise shows is constructive/invitational and lets opener pass or bid on.

Competing at the 2-level is a negative free bid and denies a big fit for clubs.

We play FSJs and Lebensohl as well. We pass with a pure penalty hand and opener tries to reopen.

Having a 6-cd club suit serves as an anchor for further exploration.

[benlessard]

Over a 2D overcall you should probably keep negative double. I very fond of cooperatives doubles and I loved opponents that play pure takeout double up to a high level (most of them) however 2D is clearly in the take-out double territory.

55(12) & (64)(21) that a lot of hand where you want to double and not see partner pass.

[PrecisionL]

If opponents Overcalls, double is for penalty since opener's hand is known (6♣ & no 4-cd major).

[rhm]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-28, 07:19, said:

Question for those that play 2♣ as showing a six-card suit.

Is it right to play negative doubles when they wander in with a two-level overcall? For those reading between the lines, I missed an 800 penalty on Friday.

This questions bugs me for a long time. I used to played penalty double on the premise that a hand having a six card club suit is unlikely to hold a 4 card major.
But the a priory odds change a little bit when sensible opponents interfere.
I have given up now and gone back to negative doubles. I now play that opener has to reopen with a DBL on almost any hand, where he would have passed a penalty DBL.

Quote

My idea of best defence here is:

Double = cooperative penalty double. Partner passes unless short
Pass = full blown penalty double or a pass
2NT = puppet to 3♣ (comp or GF)
3♣ = relay, does not promise fit (can stop 4♣)
Cue = looking for 3NT with fit (can stop 4♣)

This gets you all the penalties and more, all your 4-4 fits, and does not risk wrong-siding 3NT. All I give up is being able to make a negative double for the other major and still stop in 3♣.

I do not get this:
Say the bidding starts: 2♣--(2♠)
How do you find your 4-4 or 4-5 heart fit if responders hand is limited? You may well have game with few HCP when opener is 6♣-4♥, short in spades.
Your safety threshold is 3♣. By then you need to know about the common case where opener will have no 4 card major.
Being able to stop in 4♣ is too high and no solution. I prefer to play 4♣ forcing when not bid preemptively or forced by competitive bids.
Besides a natural 2NT (opener accepts or signs off with 3♣) is useful.

Rainer Herrmann

[Avoidance]

PhilKing, on 2013-May-28, 07:19, said:

Question for those that play 2♣ as showing a six-card suit.

Is it right to play negative doubles when they wander in with a two-level overcall? For those reading between the lines, I missed an 800 penalty on Friday.

My idea of best defence here is:

Double = cooperative penalty double. Partner passes unless short
Pass = full blown penalty double or a pass
2NT = puppet to 3♣ (comp or GF)
3♣ = relay, does not promise fit (can stop 4♣)
Cue = looking for 3NT with fit (can stop 4♣)

This gets you all the penalties and more, all your 4-4 fits, and does not risk wrong-siding 3NT. All I give up is being able to make a negative double for the other major and still stop in 3♣.

[Avoidance]

I agree with Rainer, that the ability to stop in 3C is not something to dismiss.
I think that you need at least one invitational or invitational plus sequence here. You will often want to play in 3C with 10-12 opposite 9-11.
2NT natural wrongsides NT, so either 3C or double or both need to include invitational hand types.
This is so whatever importance you attach to finding a heart fit.