[straube]

Playing a limited 1H opening, we had a 2S preempt against us. Our agreement is that 2N here is a LR but shouldn't we rather play Lebensohl?

2N requests 3C for pass or correct
3C-forcing
3D-forcing
3H-limit raise
3S-forcing raise? asks stopper?

[CSGibson]

In a world where opponents do not bid 3 or 4S, maybe you could play lebensohl effectively in this situation. In our real world, its important to have a bid that unambiguously is a limit raise+ so that you can make intelligent decisions vs later competition.

Edit: I don't think I read the treatment correctly, it looks like you do have a limit raise that's something other than a multiple meaning bid.

[gwnn]

In before gnasher suggests transfers (I agree with him).

[PhilKing]

For every one time you have a hand that wants to transfer to a minor and pass, you will have a LR in hearts about five times. Heart raises are both more frequent and more important, and the extra two steps available from bidding 2NT can be vital.

The limit raise is a fairly broad church, say a decent 9 (8 if you have 4-card support) to a bad 12, so giving room for a return try does not exactly hurt. Also, 2NT keeps 3NT in the ball park when responder has a 3-card LR+ with values in spades.

In a limited system there is slightly more case for transfers, since you don't need to stretch to bid 3♥ as often as "natural" bidders, but I would be reluctant.

[jallerton]

I much prefer transfers here (as the overcall is non-exclusive, transfers can fit all of the hand types in). Transfers have the advantage over Lebensohl that Responder's suit has been shown immediately, particularly useful when the next hand raises.

Playing traditional methods, 3♣/3♦ are natural and forcing to game, so if Responder can''t raise hearts the only positive calls available to a Responder who does not want to force to game are 2NT and double. If we have to give up one of these (the natural 2NT), then at least we should get back the ability to show some other hand types lacking a fit (competitive hands in a minor).

Phil may well be right about the relative frequencies of a limit raise and competitive hands in a minor, but that does not necessarily make it right to play 2NT his way. Once Responder shows a raise and approximate strength, Opener has a reasonable idea what contract to aim for. It's better to preserve space for the hands where we haven't got a fit; the time we'll really appreciate the room is when we want to know which strain to select. Transfers are also useful when Responder has a game force, as Opener can just complete the transfer on a boring hand. 1♥-(2♠)-3♣[transfer]-(P)-3♥ ia better defined than 1♥-(2♠)-3♦[natural]-(P)-3♥. When Opener does complete the transfer, Responder often has room to make a further desriptive call below 3NT.

It is true that using 2NT as the raise rather than 3♦ gives extra space if next hand passes, but 4th hand is also given two more steps. Often 4th hand just raises spades, in which case Opener does not have any extra space at all.

[straube]

jallerton, on 2013-April-29, 13:02, said:

I much prefer transfers here (as the overcall is non-exclusive, transfers can fit all of the hand types in). Transfers have the advantage over Lebensohl that Responder's suit has been shown immediately, particularly useful when the next hand raises.

Playing traditional methods, 3♣/3♦ are natural and forcing to game, so if Responder can''t raise hearts the only positive calls available to a Responder who does not want to force to game are 2NT and double. If we have to give up one of these (the natural 2NT), then at least we should get back the ability to show some other hand types lacking a fit (competitive hands in a minor).

Phil may well be right about the relative frequencies of a limit raise and competitive hands in a minor, but that does not necessarily make it right to play 2NT his way. Once Responder shows a raise and approximate strength, Opener has a reasonable idea what contract to aim for. It's better to preserve space for the hands where we haven't got a fit; the time we'll really appreciate the room is when we want to know which strain to select. Transfers are also useful when Responder has a game force, as Opener can just complete the transfer on a boring hand. 1♥-(2♠)-3♣[transfer]-(P)-3♥ ia better defined than 1♥-(2♠)-3♦[natural]-(P)-3♥. When Opener does complete the transfer, Responder often has room to make a further desriptive call below 3NT.

It is true that using 2NT as the raise rather than 3♦ gives extra space if next hand passes, but 4th hand is also given two more steps. Often 4th hand just raises spades, in which case Opener does not have any extra space at all.

I'm definitely thinking more about the transfer idea. With our limited openings I've found it really pays off for responder to be able to compete in a suit. Also, there's less value (but some value) in splitting hairs after responder shows a limit raise.

[Zelandakh]

You already play Rubensohl in so many auctions, this one is a prime case for following suit. You just have to agree whether to play 3♦ as LR+ or split range. If you play it as LR+ then Opener has to be able to make the next call in tempo.