[TWO4BRIDGE]

If you play Inverted Minors "OFF" by a passed hand, which is weaker : 2m or 3m by Responder ? ( and both denying a 4 card Major ) .

p - 1m
??
2m = ?
3m = ?

[inquiry]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-April-21, 20:15, said:

If you play Inverted Minors "OFF" by a passed hand, which is weaker : 2m or 3m by Responder ? ( and both denying a 4 card Major ) .

p - 1m
??
2m = ?
3m = ?

The meaning of inverted minors is that the weaker raise is 3m and the stronger raise is 2m. I have to say that if you play inverted minors off by a passed hand or inverted minors off in competition, then the weaker bid is 2m and the stronger bid is 3m. The reason being if inverted minors are off, well then, the stronger bid is the jump raise by definition.

[SteveMoe]

Alternative viewpoint;
2m is 6-10/bad 11 where 6-8 promise 4 cards only.
3m is preemptive, extra length with 8 or fewer HCP.
Q-bid shows 11+ LR.

No, a simple raise of ♣ does not promise 5, just 4. 83% of the time partner has 4 or more, right?

[aguahombre]

SteveMoe, on 2013-April-21, 23:14, said:

Alternative viewpoint;
2m is 6-10/bad 11 where 6-8 promise 4 cards only.
3m is preemptive, extra length with 8 or fewer HCP.
Q-bid shows 11+ LR.

No, a simple raise of ♣ does not promise 5, just 4. 83% of the time partner has 4 or more, right?

Cue bid of what suit? This is an unopposed auction.

[Cyberyeti]

You can also decide whether you use 2N by a passed hand as a raise, this may change which hands go through 2m and which through 3m. We leave our inverted minors on by passed hands and in competition.

[broze]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-April-22, 01:00, said:

We leave our inverted minors on by passed hands and in competition.

We play 'on' by a passed hand but 'off' in competition. We used to play them on in competition as well and used the cue bid as 11-12 HCP without a stopper but found it was much more useful just to be able to raise partner's suit (would you believe!) They should certainly be off after a double anyway.

[fromageGB]

I don't think there is any difference in shown hcp, but 3♦ has more diamonds than 2♦. That makes it "stronger".

[inquiry]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-April-22, 01:00, said:

You can also decide whether you use 2N by a passed hand as a raise, this may change which hands go through 2m and which through 3m. We leave our inverted minors on by passed hands and in competition.

From my experience, using 2NT as the raise after being a passed hand runs the risk of wrong-siding the strongly potential 3NT contract. So the 2nt response as a raise should be used only when a potential 3NT contract would most likely be "right-sided".

[ggwhiz]

crisscross (1♣-2♦ or 1♦-3♣) to show the limit raise works and doesn't lose much/anything. Then 2m is just a raise and 3m is weak and shapely.

We play this by unpassed hands too so that our inverted raise is a game force.

[Cyberyeti]

inquiry, on 2013-April-22, 10:44, said:

From my experience, using 2NT as the raise after being a passed hand runs the risk of wrong-siding the strongly potential 3NT contract. So the 2nt response as a raise should be used only when a potential 3NT contract would most likely be "right-sided".

Some people use it as 0-4 with 5 of the suit opened, unlikely you want to be in 3N and working better with a weak NT I think so partner either has extra values or extra shape.

[aguahombre]

ggwhiz, on 2013-April-22, 11:09, said:

crisscross (1♣-2♦ or 1♦-3♣) to show the limit raise works and doesn't lose much/anything. Then 2m is just a raise and 3m is weak and shapely.

We play this by unpassed hands too so that our inverted raise is a game force.

Actually, crisscross would lose a lot for us. 2D/1C and 3C/1D are useful bids for many pairs as natural with the agreed strength, reverse flannery, or whatever.

[Siegmund]

@Twofer: I don't mean to be rude... but why do you title the thread "inverted minor raises" when your question is aimed at people who DON'T play them?

Criss-cross: with some partners I play this as 8-10, and the inverted raise as 11+. With these partners is makes sense to have the criss-cross raise be on, and the inverted raise be off, by a passed hand. In this case my immediate single raise is 6-9 and usually exactly 4 cards.

1C-2D can certainly be a useful sequence. There are alternatives, like using 2S or 2NT to show the "1D-3C" hand, to free up 2D.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Siegmund, on 2013-April-22, 19:58, said:

@Twofer: I don't mean to be rude... but why do you title the thread "inverted minor raises" when your question is aimed at people who DON'T play them?

I should have had a better title... maybe:
Inverted Minor Raises : On or Off ?

EDIT: And, yes, I was particularly interested in the "passed hand" situation . Criss-cross "ON" certainly helps the situation: thus, it could go:
p - 1C
2C = constuctive
2D! = limit
3C = preemptive

My main concern is that 3m should remain preemtive.

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2013-April-23, 07:19

[PhilKing]

Who is one trying to preempt?

[barmar]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-23, 07:28, said:

Who is one trying to preempt?

An opponent who would otherwise be in a really easy position to balance.

[PhilKing]

barmar, on 2013-April-23, 08:05, said:

An opponent who would otherwise be in a really easy position to balance.

I have never seen this construction. If we have a weak hand with a five card fit and both opponents have passed, it's short odds that partner is strong balanced. The chances of him having an unbalanced natural opener are very low indeed.

[aguahombre]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-23, 08:18, said:

If we have a weak hand with a five card fit and both opponents have passed, it's short odds that partner is strong balanced. The chances of him having an unbalanced natural opener are very low indeed.

This is quite true. It is also an argument for responder as a passed hand to have as many bids to naturally describe his/her size and shape as possible. The patterns we give up in order to use crisscross become more costly and more frequent. There is no real need to make an inverted raise an absolute game force and/or include 4-card majors in the mix.

[ggwhiz]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-23, 08:18, said:

I have never seen this construction. If we have a weak hand with a five card fit and both opponents have passed, it's short odds that partner is strong balanced. The chances of him having an unbalanced natural opener are very low indeed.

It's much more likely that pard has 3-4 clubs with enough strength to shut the opps up. But showing club length and range while denying a 4-card major (ALWAYS for us) can set pard up to do the right thing, especially over a simple raise where they can investigate notrump without committing. Maybe blast 3nt over 3 clubs with a source of tricks in sight.

Yeah you lose some things I haven't thought of but over 1♣ we try to recover them with a 1♦ bid instead of two and a 3♣ bid over 1♦ against silent opps looks like we are pre-empting ourselves.

So what are the benefits of using these bids to show something else?

[Vampyr]

aguahombre, on 2013-April-23, 09:28, said:

This is quite true. It is also an argument for responder as a passed hand to have as many bids to naturally describe his/her size and shape as possible. The patterns we give up in order to use crisscross become more costly and more frequent. There is no real need to make an inverted raise an absolute game force and/or include 4-card majors in the mix.

Well, there is certainly no need to make an inverted raise an absolute game force by a passed hand. This would free up the "criss-cross" bids, if used, for fit showing or something else.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2013-April-23, 18:10, said:

Well, there is certainly no need to make an inverted raise an absolute game force by a passed hand. This would free up the "criss-cross" bids, if used, for fit showing or something else.

Many people (myself included) don't even make the inverted raise game forcing by unpassed hands. We play it as invitational or better, so it's a one-round force.

And by a passed hand, it's merely invitational, so it's not even forcing.