[32519]

Perhaps this “captaincy thing” should be better extended towards “who takes captaincy in slam tries?”

Some good examples have already been posted here for captaincy in non-slam auctions. Stayman of course is the simplest of all non-slam auction examples. Opener has limited his hand with his first bid which is also very descriptive. The weaker hand with enough values for game first looks for a major suit fit and then takes captaincy by signing off in game of the major or 3NT if no major fit is found.

[mike777]

 32519, on 2013-April-15, 22:35, said:

Perhaps this “captaincy thing” should be better extended towards “who takes captaincy in slam tries?”

Some good examples have already been posted here for captaincy in non-slam auctions. Stayman of course is the simplest of all non-slam auction examples. Opener has limited his hand with his first bid which is also very descriptive. The weaker hand with enough values for game first looks for a major suit fit and then takes captaincy by signing off in game of the major or 3NT if no major fit is found.

no

again you must understand that opener( the strong hand) can give up captaincy...


granted in my style responder is stronger hand very often...

[32519]

Another issue for me (amongst others) which led to this thread is whenever partner raises a 1NT opening bid to 3NT with minimum values on the hope that a broken 6-card minor suit will be the source of tricks to land 3NT. Whenever she asks, "Do you still love me?", as the dummy gets spread on the table, I know I'm getting a dodgy dummy with a broken 6-card minor suit. Time and again I have tried to emphasise that 1 good result from every 3 such contracts is losing bridge. I too have hope; hope that this sort of bidding will cease!

[fromageGB]

I think this weak hand / strong hand captaincy stuff is a load of nonsense. Who knows which hand is the weaker or stronger until one hand has described itself? When that happens, the OTHER hand is usually the captain, whether weaker or stronger.

[FrancesHinden]

 32519, on 2013-April-15, 22:35, said:

Perhaps this “captaincy thing” should be better extended towards “who takes captaincy in slam tries?”Some good examples have already been posted here for captaincy in non-slam auctions. Stayman of course is the simplest of all non-slam auction examples. Opener has limited his hand with his first bid which is also very descriptive. The weaker hand with enough values for game first looks for a major suit fit and then takes captaincy by signing off in game of the major or 3NT if no major fit is found.

 fromageGB, on 2013-April-19, 03:52, said:

I think this weak hand / strong hand captaincy stuff is a load of nonsense. Who knows which hand is the weaker or stronger until one hand has described itself? When that happens, the OTHER hand is usually the captain, whether weaker or stronger.

The answer to the question in the topic title is "when it's the right thing to do". Strength is completely irrelevant.

I think this whole captaincy stuff is in most cases a load of nonsense, particularly in any form of natural (rather than relay-based) system. In any auction, eventually one hand will 'take control' and select the final contract, but an auction where one hand becomes 'captain' for more than one bid is rare. Yes, you can have particular cases where someone starts asking specific questions and the other hand has no choice but to give a specific answer, but usually that's only for one round of the auction. A much more common approach is that both hands describe themselves until one player knows enough to set the final contract. This is particularly true in slam auctions.

Here's an example:
1NT (15-17) 2H
2S 3C
3S 4C
4D 4NT
5H 5NT
7S Pass

Opener describes his hand, roughly, with his opening bid.
Responder bids 2H, a transfer to spades.
Opener completes, denying a hand suitable for a transfer break
Responder shows his second suit with 3C
Opener confirms he has spade support and describes his hand further by e.g. not jumping to 4S
Responder now continues to describe his hand - in fact he's got a slam try with 5-5 in the blacks (in this pair's methods)
Opener says he's interested in slam and has a diamond control

Up to this point neither hand has really 'taken control' they are both describing their hands to the partner.

Now responder thinks he has enough to start asking direct questions: he asks opener how many aces he's got. At this point responder is 'captain'
Having heard the response, responder confirms they have all the key cards and asks for kings.
Now suddenly opener becomes 'captain': he can see that if responder is interested in grand, his hand must be good enough. (Perhaps, at imps, opener has Kxx xxx AKQJx Kx)

So we managed to get to grand with neither player really 'taking control' for any length of time.

In general, the weaker the partnership, the more common it is for one hand to take control of the auction - particularly if one player is stronger than their partner. That's because they don't trust their partner to make good decisions so they want to take all the decisions themselves.

[FrancesHinden]

 32519, on 2013-April-19, 00:01, said:

Another issue for me (amongst others) which led to this thread is whenever partner raises a 1NT opening bid to 3NT with minimum values on the hope that a broken 6-card minor suit will be the source of tricks to land 3NT. Whenever she asks, "Do you still love me?", as the dummy gets spread on the table, I know I'm getting a dodgy dummy with a broken 6-card minor suit. Time and again I have tried to emphasise that 1 good result from every 3 such contracts is losing bridge. I too have hope; hope that this sort of bidding will cease!

I'm not sure what this has got to do with the thread.
You seem to be criticising partner's judgement on when it's right to raise 1NT to 3NT compared to when it's right to invite. That's got nothing to do with 'captaincy'.

[FrancesHinden]

 32519, on 2013-April-15, 22:35, said:

Some good examples have already been posted here for captaincy in non-slam auctions. Stayman of course is the simplest of all non-slam auction examples. Opener has limited his hand with his first bid which is also very descriptive. The weaker hand with enough values for game first looks for a major suit fit and then takes captaincy by signing off in game of the major or 3NT if no major fit is found.

Unless the weaker hand looks for a major suit fit, finds one, and then offers the choice of 4M or 3NT to opener.

[MrAce]

 FrancesHinden, on 2013-April-20, 04:21, said:

much more common approach is that both hands describe themselves until one player knows enough to set the final contract. This is particularly true in slam auctions.

Here's an example:
1NT (15-17) 2H
2S 3C
3S 4C
4D 4NT
5H 5NT
7S Pass

Opener describes his hand, roughly, with his opening bid.
Responder bids 2H, a transfer to spades.
Opener completes, denying a hand suitable for a transfer break
Responder shows his second suit with 3C
Opener confirms he has spade support and describes his hand further by e.g. not jumping to 4S
Responder now continues to describe his hand - in fact he's got a slam try with 5-5 in the blacks (in this pair's methods)
Opener says he's interested in slam and has a diamond control

Up to this point neither hand has really 'taken control' they are both describing their hands to the partner.

In this auction, responder was the captain entire auction. My interpretation of the calls are slightly different than yours.

-Opener showed a 15-17 balanced hand. Telling that "opener described his hand roughly" is a huge understatement, considering what usually 1 level opening bids describe. Responder can gibe up his control over the auction at any point by making an invitation to game or slam or grandslam. Or he may decide to show his short suit and turn in captaincy to pd if responder believes the outcome of where they land will depend on pd's holding in that suit. Oh my... he may even skip to show a shortness if he believes there are a lot of hands where pd may think he has a bad hand while in fact he has a good one for us. Opener does not have any of these abilities.

-Responder now probably knows they have at least a slam and likely a grandslam. Opener has no clue, In fact he doesn't even know if they have a game or not.

-Opener started giving info to the captain, saying he is not extremely thrilled with pd's 5 card spade suit.

-Responder now gives a clear order to opener "do not pass before game" He is not showing a side 4 card suit only. Does that show a slam interest by responder ? Hell no, he may as well be looking for a safe place to play their game.


-Opener still has no clue if they will stop in game or slam or grandslam, obeying the order and continue to bid (even if he opened with 2443 15 hcp with no spots he has to continue) He confirms spade support and describes his hand by not jumping to 4♠ and he is interested (he did not bid 4♠ ***

-Responder bids 4♣ and gives an other order " focus on black hcps, this is what i need, do you have them ?" Or this may just be a control cue wondering about ♦ control. What was he supposed to bid with AQJxx x xxx KQJx ? 4♥ ? I think a 4♥ bid here should be something like AQJxx A xxx QJxx.

-Opener, still can not do anything since he still has no clue where they will stop, this may still be 4♠ missing controls in 1 suit or as it happened it may end up in grandslam. And he bids 4♦ . Some may interprete 4♦ as accepting the slam invite and they would skip the ♦ cue if they were not interested (which is a very bad interpretation imo, because if responder has an invite hand he can always bid 4♥ over 4♦ cue) some may interprete 4♦ as a forced cue if opener has it, and that opener already showed interest by bidding 3♠ instead of 4. Who knows all responder needed was probably ♦ control and a fit.

After this point you already admitted responder was the captain.

From the beginning, repsonder directed the path of auction, told pd he is not allowed to pass untill the game or slam or grandslam is reached. . He told him to focus in 2 suits and asked his opinions but never ever gave him the control of the auction. Opener had no clue from the beginning to the end whether they would play just game or more and which suit. After 4♦ cue for example it may as well ended up in 6 NT, all of this was known and masterminded by responder. All opener did was to colobarate.

***NOTE: I am aware that there are hands like KJ xxx AKxxx KJx where opener can bid 3♠ without 3 card spade (or he may bid 3♦/♥ without 4 card clubs depending on your agreements) and that 3♠ does not neccesarilly mean he is interested in forward going. But due to the lack of ability to bid 3NT, the hcps in black suits usually cover the lack of 3rd spade.