[awm]

For me the answer is a straight no. I will open 1m on these hands always. I've tried opening 1NT with a singleton a few times in the past, and have had partners try it on several more occasions, and have been thoroughly unimpressed with the results.

[fromageGB]

If 1♦ guarantees an outside singleton or void if there is no ♦ rebid, it is difficult to see how you can go wrong. Especially if opener rebids 1NT when responder bids his short major.

[han]

mikeh, on 2013-March-27, 10:12, said:

Otoh, opening 1N is not exactly a perfect solution either. All kinds of bad things could happen. Partner could commit us to hearts at any level, and be very disappointed to find our stiff. The opps could run hearts on us when we have a minor suit game. We may languish in a bad 1N when we could have been playing a 4-4 spade fit....on a bad day we play 1N while cold for 4♠. And so on.

I agree with what you wrote, and especially that it is almost impossible to prove anything.

Regarding the negatives of opening 1NT that you wrote here, I agree with all of them but would say that opening 1NT with a small doubleton in hearts has the same negatives. A stiff ace or king (which, as I wrote, are the only stiffs in hearts with which I might open 1NT) is not necessarily more disappointing than a small doubleton (especially if partner forces us to play 4M) and it actually makes the chance of them running the suit smaller.

But yes, all kind of bad things could happen when you make a decision either way. I stick with my main point (which I believe you agreed with) which was that opening 1NT with a singleton in a major is more attractive than opening 1NT with a singleton in a minor.

[han]

PhilKing, on 2013-March-27, 10:21, said:

1♦-1♥-1♠-1NT-2♣.

Natural, constructive.

Consider a relatively attractive hand for opening 1NT such as AQxx K KJ10x QJxx. Do you think that the auction

1D - 1H
1S - 1NT
2C

is preferable over opening 1NT? Besides not being able to play 1NT and not being able to play any notrump contract from your side, it seems to me that this auction overemphasizes the unbalanced characted of the hand.

[Vampyr]

wyman, on 2013-March-26, 11:41, said:

A very reasonable treatment:
You don't have 5+ diamonds, so you bid your 4cM if you have one: 2H. You bid 2D with any hand with 5+ diamonds, even if you do have a 4cM.

I know the OP specified strong NT, but I just wanted to comment that the above cannot work when playing weak NT, since the reverse would be made with weak-NT strength.

But anyway with reversing strength (or playing 2/1 GF) and 5+ diamonds 4+ major, you may have to lie about a 5th diamond in the first sentence above; but I don't understand why you would lie about not having a 4-card major, since with this hand you can bid naturally.

I generally open these hands 1♥ (playing 5-card majors).

[fromageGB]

Vampyr, on 2013-March-28, 08:08, said:

... but I don't understand why you would lie about not having a 4-card major, since with this hand you can bid naturally.

I generally open these hands 1♥ (playing 5-card majors).

Mmm do I misunderstand? (1) You would not lie about not having a 4 card major (2) Playing 5 card majors you open these hands (with a 4 card heart suit) 1♥

(2) contradicts (1)

[Vampyr]

fromageGB, on 2013-March-29, 04:11, said:

Mmm do I misunderstand? (1) You would not lie about not having a 4 card major (2) Playing 5 card majors you open these hands (with a 4 card heart suit) 1♥

(2) contradicts (1)

Right, I was talking about two different hands. (1) With 5 diamonds and a 4-card major, it is "normal" to shape out naturally if you have enough strength. The previous poster said he was willing to lie by rebidding a major with 4=4=4=1, but also lied when he had the expected longer diamonds than (say) hearts by suppressing the 4-card major. (2) I open 1♥ in the first place. Largely this is because I play weak NT, so I will not have the values to make a same-length reverse.

[mikl_plkcc]

han, on 2013-March-28, 08:09, said:

Consider a relatively attractive hand for opening 1NT such as AQxx K KJ10x QJxx. Do you think that the auction

1D - 1H
1S - 1NT
2C

is preferable over opening 1NT? Besides not being able to play 1NT and not being able to play any notrump contract from your side, it seems to me that this auction overemphasizes the unbalanced characted of the hand.

Absolutely never. I would open 1♣ in this case. Bidding would go 1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 1nt - / if partner don't have 4 ♦s. The above auction shows at least 5 ♦s for me.

[Zelandakh]

mikl_plkcc, on 2013-April-16, 08:31, said:

Absolutely never. I would open 1♣ in this case. Bidding would go 1♣ - 1♥ - 1♠ - 1nt - / if partner don't have 4 ♦s. The above auction shows at least 5 ♦s for me.

The auction might go like that. Or it might start: 1♣ - (1♠) - X - (P). What now?

[Mbodell]

han, on 2013-March-26, 08:28, said:

It depends. Holding a king or ace in spades I would usually open 1NT, and sometimes with a queen. If the singleton is in hearts I might also open 1NT. I have never opened 1NT with a singleton in a minor. I don't like the idea at all.

This. I'm OK with a minor stiff honor for 2nt, but for 1NT I want spades. I had the practically perfect hand this weekend, something like K KJxx AJTx KJ9x. An easy 1nt (15-17) for me.

[rhm]

32519, on 2013-March-26, 01:34, said:

2. It conveys your approximate shape

Strange remark.
While I have opened 1NT (and 2NT) with that shape I have yet to claim that it conveys my approximate shape.

Rainer Herrmann

[wyman]

wyman said:

A very reasonable treatment:
You don't have 5+ diamonds, so you bid your 4cM if you have one: 2H. You bid 2D with any hand with 5+ diamonds, even if you do have a 4cM.

Vampyr, on 2013-March-28, 08:08, said:

I know the OP specified strong NT, but I just wanted to comment that the above cannot work when playing weak NT, since the reverse would be made with weak-NT strength.

But anyway with reversing strength (or playing 2/1 GF) and 5+ diamonds 4+ major, you may have to lie about a 5th diamond in the first sentence above; but I don't understand why you would lie about not having a 4-card major, since with this hand you can bid naturally.

I generally open these hands 1♥ (playing 5-card majors).

Vampyr, on 2013-March-29, 08:29, said:

Right, I was talking about two different hands. (1) With 5 diamonds and a 4-card major, it is "normal" to shape out naturally if you have enough strength. The previous poster said he was willing to lie by rebidding a major with 4=4=4=1, but also lied when he had the expected longer diamonds than (say) hearts by suppressing the 4-card major. (2) I open 1♥ in the first place. Largely this is because I play weak NT, so I will not have the values to make a same-length reverse.

Now I'm confused by all this. Someone asked about methods in the auction 1D-2C.

No one is lying about shape if your agreement is what I described above. All hands with 5+ diamonds rebid 2D. All hands without 5+ diamonds don't. With a 4cM, you bid it. Without, you rebid 2N. Since 2C is GF [perhaps this is where we diverge?], you needn't promise extra strength by bidding 2M. Does this clear up whatever confusion you had with my post? I'm not lying about a 5th diamond, nor am I lying about 4cM.

[the_dude]

Before the GIB Tournament Declarer play fix, I played hundreds (thousands?) of robot tournaments opening 1NT with any 4441 approaching 15-17 range. Given that these are "best hand" tournaments this turns out to be a pretty big sample size.

What jumped out at me was how often 1NT turned out to be the winning bid, and would have been even if there had been 3 human experts at the table. Opposition bidding over 1NT is severely handicapped, as was the defense when we played the hand. (Note that this was all matchpoints, presenting many more opportunities for large scores via misdefense and partscores. Your results may be different at IMPs where missing games and slams is much more costly)

Of course, this then begs a few serious questions regarding disclosure (and legality). As an infrequent member of the ACBL scene I don't know the answers to those questions.

[MickyB]

the_dude, on 2013-April-18, 07:32, said:

Before the GIB Tournament Declarer play fix, I played hundreds (thousands?) of robot tournaments opening 1NT with any 4441 approaching 15-17 range. Given that these are "best hand" tournaments this turns out to be a pretty big sample size.

What jumped out at me was how often 1NT turned out to be the winning bid, and would have been even if there had been 3 human experts at the table. Opposition bidding over 1NT is severely handicapped, as was the defense when we played the hand. (Note that this was all matchpoints, presenting many more opportunities for large scores via misdefense and partscores. Your results may be different at IMPs where missing games and slams is much more costly)

Of course, this then begs a few serious questions regarding disclosure (and legality). As an infrequent member of the ACBL scene I don't know the answers to those questions.

You make a good point, perhaps the correct answer is to open 1NT on 4441s iff oppo are playing Capp.

[ArtK78]

You are going to run into problems in the ACBL if you open 1NT frequently with 4441 shape. ACBL tournament directors take a dim view of 1NT openings with singletons. And they have reason to do so.

According to the ACBL General Convention Chart, a natural 1NT opening or overcall is defined as follows:

A no trump opening or overcall is natural if, by agreement, it is balanced (generally, no singleton or void and no more than two doubletons).

There is no prohibition to opening 1NT with a singleton or void. But an agreement to open 1NT frequently with a singleton is a conventional call and must be disclosed (we are not talking about forcing 1NT openings such as the Dynamic Notrump). Further, I do not see anything on any of the convention charts that allows an agreement to bid a nonforcing 1NT opening bid with a singleton.

Once you start to open the bidding 1NT with a singleton on a regular basis, it becomes a partnership agreement and must be disclosed. This is when the problem arises. Personally, I don't find the language in the definition of a natural 1NT opening that says that the 1NT opening "generally" does not contain a singleton or a void very comforting.

I open the floor to anyone who can find something to the contrary.

[By the way, I frequently open 1NT with offshape hands in Robot games. So far, none of the Robots has called for the TD]

[barmar]

ArtK78, on 2013-April-18, 08:26, said:

You are going to run into problems in the ACBL if you open 1NT frequently with 4441 shape. ACBL tournament directors take a dim view of 1NT openings with singletons. And they have reason to do so.

According to the ACBL General Convention Chart, a natural 1NT opening or overcall is defined as follows:

A no trump opening or overcall is natural if, by agreement, it is balanced (generally, no singleton or void and no more than two doubletons).

There is no prohibition to opening 1NT with a singleton or void. But an agreement to open 1NT frequently with a singleton is a conventional call and must be disclosed (we are not talking about forcing 1NT openings such as the Dynamic Notrump). Further, I do not see anything on any of the convention charts that allows an agreement to bid a nonforcing 1NT opening bid with a singleton.

I had previously assumed that you simply had to alert if you have an agreement to open 1NT with shortness. But now that I've looked at the GCC and Alert Procedures, it looks like you're right: it's not even a permitted agreement.

Quote

Once you start to open the bidding 1NT with a singleton on a regular basis, it becomes a partnership agreement and must be disclosed. This is when the problem arises. Personally, I don't find the language in the definition of a natural 1NT opening that says that the 1NT opening "generally" does not contain a singleton or a void very comforting.

The common understanding about this is that if you make an exception with singleton A or K, it's OK. But routinely opening 1NT with worthless singletons is against the regulation. I'm not sure why they would even suggest the possibility that it can be done with a void, though.

Quote

[By the way, I frequently open 1NT with offshape hands in Robot games. So far, none of the Robots has called for the TD]

I'll get right on this.

[wyman]

"Generally" still does not bother me. Anyone want to do a rough calculation of how many 14+ to 17- hands are 4333, 4432, 5332, and 6322 and then how many 4x1 with a singleton A/K? I can't imagine that we're looking at a very high percentage of my 1N openers, so I'd say that generally my 1N openers have no singleton, no void, and no more than 2 doubletons.

I can imagine interpretations of that language that differ from my own, however.

[42krunner]

ArtK78, on 2013-March-26, 07:04, said:

In Bridge, as in most endeavors, one should never say never.

Having said that, never.

LOL.