[cnszsun]

1♣-1NT, 2NT
or
1♦-1NT, 2NT

2NT invites partner to bid 3NT, right? What kind of hands will you bid 2nt? Any difference if your first bid is club or diamond?

[fromageGB]

My assumption with standard bidding is that 2NT invites 3NT, that there is no difference whether you start with ♣ or ♦, and that 1NT will be in the 6-10 hcp range so that opener's invitation invites game with 9 or 10, so opener would have 16 to invite.

As the 1NT bid shows clubs, I would still invite having opened 1♦ on a 16 count 4441 shape.

However, over 1♣ my preference is to use transfer walsh, and 1NT has a different meaning.

[Gerardo]

System?

In Std. Am., 15-17 NT : 18-19. If I have a balanced hand, and 15-17 NT, would open it 1NT.

in Std. Am, 11(12)-14 NT (playing that lately NV): 15-17.

[kenberg]

After 1m-1NT I am contemplating bidding 2NT. I assume that if I do, partner will raise to 3NT with most 8 counts. If I don't want him to do that, I wouldn't bid 2NT. Maybe I have a 17 count with a good five card minor and I thought the hand too strong to open 1NT. Or maybe I have some tens. But usually I have 18 highs. As long as you have a good idea of when partner will raise to 3, I see no need to define it further.

Btw, this idea that 25 highs are enough for 3NT applies most strongly when the points are fairly evenly divided. When most points are in one hand, it's tougher. If partner has 7 highs and I have 18, it may not be so easy to bring in nine tricks.

Some play that 1♣-1NT shows more strength than 1♦-1NT. I don't like that approach but if playing it then I may have to adjust a bit.

[cnszsun]

Thanks for the reply, but I'm still confused.
One way is as kenberg said, it shows a hand better than 1nt opening, similar to 1 major -1nt, 2nt. Then, how do you handle unbalanced 15-17?
Another way, this 2nt always shows 15-17 which you don't open 1nt for some reasons. For 18-19, just raise to game.
Any thoughts?

[wyman]

 cnszsun, on 2013-March-11, 08:44, said:

Thanks for the reply, but I'm still confused.
One way is as kenberg said, it shows a hand better than 1nt opening, similar to 1 major -1nt, 2nt. Then, how do you handle unbalanced 15-17?
Another way, this 2nt always shows 15-17 which you don't open 1nt for some reasons. For 18-19, just raise to game.
Any thoughts?

Reverse with your 15-17 5m4M hands?

[fromageGB]

 cnszsun, on 2013-March-11, 08:44, said:

Thanks for the reply, but I'm still confused.
... how do you handle unbalanced 15-17?
Another way, this 2nt always shows 15-17 which you don't open 1nt for some reasons. For 18-19, just raise to game.
Any thoughts?

As kenberg said, you don't need a rule on what sort of hand you had, as long as you know what partner will have to take 2NT up to 3NT. Mine will have a 9 or 10 count so I am happy to bid 2NT on a 16 count.

If this is normally in your 1NT opening range, then it implies you have a hand that for some reason (shortage?) you decided not to open 1NT. That in turn suggests that if your shortage is in a major, and partner has denied a 4 card major, it may not be a good bid. You may be better off in a minor, or pass the NT.

If it is not in your normal NT range, there is no problem.

If playing 15-17 NT and no agreements on this situation, I would bid 3NT with 18, not 2NT. But this is risky, as it is unlikely to play well opposite 6 or 7. Combining with my second paragraph caveat, it may be better to use 2NT as an invitation with 18 (or a 17 you thought too good for 1NT) for partner to raise on 8 or more. Bid 3NT with 19. This is what I would effectively do with my transfer walsh sequences, where partner would initially bid 1♠ with this hand. I bid 1NT with 12-14, 2NT with 17/18, and effectively 3NT with 19.

[ggwhiz]

 cnszsun, on 2013-March-11, 08:44, said:

Thanks for the reply, but I'm still confused.
One way is as kenberg said, it shows a hand better than 1nt opening, similar to 1 major -1nt, 2nt. Then, how do you handle unbalanced 15-17?
Another way, this 2nt always shows 15-17 which you don't open 1nt for some reasons. For 18-19, just raise to game.
Any thoughts?

I play something a touch different from standard probably a little old fashioned in that 1♣ - 1nt shows 8 -10 for us and 1♦ - 1nt shows 6 - 9ish. The ish could be a bad 10 or a caffeine induced 5.

So 2nt after 1♣ is a bit weaker (great 14) with a source of tricks, 5 or 6 good clubs and the 18-19 just bids game. Over 1♦, 18-19 raises to 2nt.

More common is how we handle unbalanced 15-17 opposite either opening. A reverse or jump in your suit are pretty easy but something like 1♦ - 1nt - 2♣ can be up to 17 since a jump to 3♣ is a game force for us. With clubs, pard needs to make a courtesy raise IF non minimum and it applies to major suit openings as well.

[gwnn]

I think many people play that you always raise to 3NT with 18-19 balanced and make 2NT a semi-balanced invite with a long club suit. The point is that normally responder does not stretch to respond 1NT so game is at least OK with 18-19 bal. opposite.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Standard is 18,19 if you play 1NT open as 15-17.

It is the same as if Responder bid 1H or 1S .

[fromageGB]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-March-11, 09:20, said:

Standard is 18,19 if you play 1NT open as 15-17.

It is the same as if Responder bid 1H or 1S .

There is a world of a difference, though. After 1m 1M, 2NT = 18/19 because an unbalanced 15-17 with M shortage can bid 1NT. That is not the case when partner responds 1NT. It may not be wise for a 15-17 M shortage hand to pass when responder has 3 cards in M at the most.

[trevahound]

 fromageGB, on 2013-March-11, 10:44, said:

There is a world of a difference, though. After 1m 1M, 2NT = 18/19 because an unbalanced 15-17 with M shortage can bid 1NT. That is not the case when partner responds 1NT. It may not be wise for a 15-17 M shortage hand to pass when responder has 3 cards in M at the most.

I am probably misreading this. 1m - 1M // 1nt does not equal 15-17 unbalanced in any standard methods. It's 12-14 ish, balanced.

This entire chain has me thinking I'm missing something very basic. Why would an unbalanced hand want to rebid in NT given other palatable options?

Where I live, in standard methods, a 2nt rebid over a 1 level response shows 18-19 (or whatever range of your NT ladder takes over just above your 1nt opener or rebid), and a jump to 3nt instead shows a running first suit and a couple of random outside cards, not a hand that should have opened 2nt in the first place.

[cnszsun]

So, the topic has become how we handle unbalanced 15-17? I guess most won't reverse with 4441or 5431 15-16 hands.

[JLOGIC]

I mean, I don't bid 1C 1N with airball so I just bid 3N over 1N with 18-19 balanced since partner has shown enough for games, ergo 2N is just invitational which implies an unbalanced hand.

Over 1D I do bid 1N with airball and no 4 card major (since 1D is no longer available, or if playing transfers over 1C then 1S is no longer available), so I bid 2N with 18-19 bal or the equivalent (4441, maybe (43)51 with stiff club honor and the equiv of 18).