[rhm]

han, on 2013-March-06, 06:58, said:

I can easily cook up hands where 3NT is the best contract (xx KJ10x KQxxx 10x). Partner has a good enough picture of our hand to make a reasonable decision, so I'd say that pass is clear.

Interested to see several people arguing in favor of bidding. I notice that all of the constructions so far give partner only 3 hearts, while the opponents bid to only 2H after our 1C opener. Are we white against red? Surely 4 hearts is more likely than 3?

Playing partner to hold Axx of hearts strikes me as an insult.

Even on your construction (xx KJ10x KQxxx 10x) 5♦ is a likely make and so is 4NT, which I would expect partner to bid over 4♣.
Besides partner might have preferred an immediate notrump bid with that hand.
If partner has 4 hearts chances for slam increase.
Your claim that partner has a good picture of our hand just because our hand is suitable for a 3♥ bid is an exaggeration and partner had to take a decision whether to leave 3NT behind or not.
It is not like he had plenty of other choices left below 3NT.
Change your hand to xx KJTx KQxxx Kx and I want to see the expert who would bid anything but 3NT in response to 3♥.
♥Axx is an unlikely holding but other holdings like ♥AJ9x might be possible.

Rainer Herrmann

[JLOGIC]

han, on 2013-March-06, 06:58, said:

I can easily cook up hands where 3NT is the best contract (xx KJ10x KQxxx 10x). Partner has a good enough picture of our hand to make a reasonable decision, so I'd say that pass is clear.

Interested to see several people arguing in favor of bidding. I notice that all of the constructions so far give partner only 3 hearts, while the opponents bid to only 2H after our 1C opener. Are we white against red? Surely 4 hearts is more likely than 3?

Playing partner to hold Axx of hearts strikes me as an insult.

Axx of hearts is an insult, but is xx KQxx KQxxx Kx an insult? Maybe it is, 5422 is good and the KQ of hearts could be useful, but it's still an aceless 13.

Can partner ever hold the HA? Kxx AJTx Kxxxx x? Though it's unclear how good of a slam that is I guess, seems alright at least.


Anyways, if you bid 4C your partner bids 5C. Are we bidding slam now?

[JLOGIC]

Also, I was thinking partner can have nutted hearts with the ace which will be good since he will be 3451 a lot (Qxx AQTx KTxxx x is a pretty good slam?), or 5422 with KQ of diamonds (xx AQTx KQxxx xx is pretty good)? Should partner be bidding 3N with the 2nd hand though, maybe not, he could recongize thats gotta be a good hand for us, so I'm not sure if that is a valid construction.

Anyways, I dunno I bid 4C and got 5C so obv that was pretty good but maybe it was just lucky. Still not sure about this hand, it def felt weird to bid on (because of the title of this thread) but when I was constructing hands it seemed like there were enough slam hands and 5D was usually fine.

[mikeh]

han, on 2013-March-06, 06:58, said:

I can easily cook up hands where 3NT is the best contract (xx KJ10x KQxxx 10x). Partner has a good enough picture of our hand to make a reasonable decision, so I'd say that pass is clear.

Interested to see several people arguing in favor of bidding. I notice that all of the constructions so far give partner only 3 hearts, while the opponents bid to only 2H after our 1C opener. Are we white against red? Surely 4 hearts is more likely than 3?

Playing partner to hold Axx of hearts strikes me as an insult.

Hey: I thought we were being nice to each other

Of course he is unlikely to hold Axx in hearts, but my decision to pull wasn't based on playing him for that holding. I started the post by observing that in my opinion slam was remote: if I were playing him for Axx in hearts, I'd be almost driving to slam, not merely aiming at 5♦ while catering to a remote upside possibility.

Axx isn't (by a long shot) the only slam suitable holding: there are many others that are more consistent with 3N.

One point that we should bear in mind, and has been stated by others, is that the auction didn't give partner, who is looking at no Aces, unless he has the heart A, any room below 3N. If he has a hand on which 3N is to be the contract, he has to bid it, and trust us to judge correctly when our hand is too suit-oriented to pass. IOW, I think partner didn't bid 3N to end the auction but to suggest that on the information he had, he wanted to offer 3N.

I can well understand that we can feel that our hand isn't one on which we should pull. Various good players, including you, have given your reasons. I mildly disagree, but not primarily because I think slam is 'likely'. I think either game is likely to be, on balance, about as good as the other and there remains a remote chance of reaching a good slam (without his having Axx in hearts!) that we cannot reach by passing 3N. I'd give bidding (presumably 4♣) 100 and passing 90 or 95: I think it that close.

[Fluffy]

there is a 3 count that gives me a shot at slam: xxx xxx Kxxxx xx, for me this is enough arguent to move on, there is a big chance that slam will be on a finese or something, but that never scared me.

[hrothgar]

JLOGIC, on 2013-March-06, 10:32, said:

Anyways, if you bid 4C your partner bids 5C. Are we bidding slam now?

My whole reason for bidding 4♣ was to find out what partner had in said suit.
I'm bidding slam

[rhm]

hrothgar, on 2013-March-06, 12:33, said:

My whole reason for bidding 4♣ was to find out what partner had in said suit.
I'm bidding slam

So do I and expect it to be at worst on a finesse.

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

After 4♣, what do you think is the difference between a direct 5♣, and 4♦ followed by 5♣?

The was a BW article a while ago that suggested 4♦ should be non-serious. If we played that, obviously we'd accept now, but I guess that's not part of Justin's methods.

[rhm]

gnasher, on 2013-March-07, 03:25, said:

After 4♣, what do you think is the difference between a direct 5♣, and 4♦ followed by 5♣?

The was a BW article a while ago that suggested 4♦ should be non-serious. If we played that, obviously we'd accept now, but I guess that's not part of Justin's methods.

I like to keep it simple.

4♣ is a help suit slam trial bid and partner's response of 5♣ is positive, most likely showing the ♣K. But with the ♥A, he would bid 4♥.
4♦ would be minorwood.

4NT and 5♦ would be negative.

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

I like to keep it simple too:
4♣ asks partner to start a cue auction, with 4♦ being a club cue
4♦ is a general slam try
4♥ is RKCB

[billw55]

JLOGIC, on 2013-March-06, 10:32, said:

Anyways, if you bid 4C your partner bids 5C. Are we bidding slam now?

This is the only question that seems easy enough for me to answer.

Yes I bid slam. What would be the point of making a slam try, if I am not going to bid slam after getting a good response?

[Fluffy]

for me 5♣ is something like ♠Qx ♥QJx ♦Kxxxx ♣Kxx

So I bid slam, perhaps on a finese.

[Alik1974]

Very close - I think I'd go in IMPs, although I can see 8 tricks already (well, possibly ). I would take partner's offer to play in NT as optional - he knows my ♥ shortage, but still shows his hand's faces.

[lesh]

I would pass. Over my 3♥ bid shortage and most of the time 18points partner decided to settle in 3nt. Also for the 3NT bid I think pd must stop ♥ twice or at least 1.5 Because I dont understand wanting to play there opposite my 17-18 points on avarage, having a singleton ♥, surely he could either sign off in 5♦ or bid something else.

In addition, even if we go down in 3nt and we have 5♦ I dont want to correct partner because pretty much I have described my hand and he decided that 3nt would be the better spot. Hence, I will pull 3nt only when I have values for slam or very unbalanced hand and

[lesh]

JLOGIC, on 2013-March-06, 10:32, said:

Axx of hearts is an insult, but is xx KQxx KQxxx Kx an insult? Maybe it is, 5422 is good and the KQ of hearts could be useful, but it's still an aceless 13.

Can partner ever hold the HA? Kxx AJTx Kxxxx x? Though it's unclear how good of a slam that is I guess, seems alright at least.


Anyways, if you bid 4C your partner bids 5C. Are we bidding slam now?

I dont think pd will bid 3nt with xx KQxx KQxxx Kx - even tho it is aceless 13 partner has 17+points outside ♥, with chances for slam very very high. I will defo cu bid 4♣ rather than sign off.