[gordontd]

IMP pairs

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[Fluffy]

4NT for me, pass is what most forum members will pick I bet, not my style though.

[mr1303]

Take out partner's take-out doubles. I also bid 4NT, 2 places to play.

Hope we don't play Fishbein...

[Codo]

4 NT too. I would think about pass, 4 club and 5 club too, but not too long.

[WellSpyder]

What would 4♠ show here? Is it clear to everyone that 4NT has to be 2 places to play (or the minors) rather than natural but too strong to bid 3NT? (There was a hand at the weekend where opponents had this auction against me and 4NT was passed.)

[PhilKing]

I would bid 4♠. I agree that 4NT shows two places to play, but one is 4NT and the other is 6NT.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Over a 4S opening preempt, then 4NT overcall = 2 places to play .

This is a 3S opening preempt and a T/O DBL overcall ( ostensibly 3 places to play ) .
.... So now partner ( Advancer ) has 4S or 4NT available for good hands that can at least play at the 5-level ( and 4C, 4D, or 4H bids for weak hands ).

It has been asked what 4S means ?
I really don't know .... but could
.... 4S! = ♥ and a minor ( then 4NT! = asks minor ? ) and
....4NT! = the minors ??

[han]

I have never seen a hand from live bridge where I wanted to make a natural 4NT bid in this auction. I don't mean that they cannot be constructed, only that I have never seen one occur.

I have often seen hands with both minors, and I have often seen hands with minor suit slam tries. I think that using 4S for the slam tries and 4NT for the hands with both minors is better than the quantitative 4NT. It is also more natural to me, by which I mean more consistent with my style in similar auctions.

[cherdano]

 PhilKing, on 2013-March-05, 06:56, said:

I would bid 4♠. I agree that 4NT shows two places to play, but one is 4NT and the other is 6NT.

A natural 4NT would be really useful...if it could suggest 6NT and 3♠X as the two places to play

[JLOGIC]

I think a strong 5 of a minor bid is more important than a natural 4N (probably because I'd pass with a natural 4N bid). The common way of playing it is 4N is 2 places to play and 4N is the good 5x bid, but it seems better to play 4S with 2 places and 4N with a strong 1 suiter (partner bids the cheapest one he would reject a slam try with).

[WellSpyder]

 Fluffy, on 2013-March-05, 05:32, said:

4NT for me, pass is what most forum members will pick I bet, not my style though.

No-one want to help Fluffy win his bet by passing?

[FrancesHinden]

I play 4NT as natural, and it's come up before now - it's a good way to get to minor suit slams (not just 4NT or 6NT).
So on this hand I'd bid 4S, two places to play.

[Zelandakh]

 JLOGIC, on 2013-March-05, 12:37, said:

but it seems better to play 4S with 2 places and 4N with a strong 1 suiter (partner bids the cheapest one he would reject a slam try with).

If you are going to play 4NT like this, would it not be better to re-arrange slightly to:
4♠ = minors or to play 5m (4NT = prefer diamonds)
4NT = one-suited slam try (Paradox advances as above)
5m = this minor plus hearts

[JLOGIC]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-March-06, 04:33, said:

If you are going to play 4NT like this, would it not be better to re-arrange slightly to:
4♠ = minors or to play 5m (4NT = prefer diamonds)
4NT = one-suited slam try (Paradox advances as above)
5m = this minor plus hearts

I don't know lol, I mean in real life I never would do something like this because it is a situation that rarely comes up and is unnatural to play this way (to me) so I would be very likely to forget and bid 3S X P 5m with a minor. And if I luckily didn't forget, my partner would

But it seems like the whole gain about bidding 4S with the minors is that partner can bid 4N with equal length and you play the longer fit when youre 5-4 either way. In your proposed scheme, that is lost, so we're back to playing the shorter fit sometimes opposite equal length.

[gordontd]

This hand actually came from a ruling, but I think it's shown its own interest apart from that.

Now I'd like to ask what people think would be suggested if partner's double had been very slow?

(Mods feel free to move this if you think it's now too off-topic).

[JLOGIC]

I think showing the minors and bidding game is so obvious that it is the only logical alternative, so it doesn't matter. I mean I guess if someone bid 5C because they weren't sure what bid showed the minors that would be ok.

[FrancesHinden]

Sort of what Justin said. Except...

I think a slow double suggests partner is off-shape, which probably suggests passing so I would consider adjusting if this hand passed successfully.
I'm not certain about this, because an off-shape partner could be short in hearts which makes bidding more attractive.

[jallerton]

I agree with Frances's first sentence: "a slow double suggests partner is off-shape, which probably suggests passing so I would consider adjusting if this hand passed successfully." Combining the slowness of the double with the authorised information that RHO did not raise, suggests that the partner's double might be based on longer spades than usual. They can't be allowed to play system where in tempo double = take-out, slow double = co-operative/penalty orientated!

[WellSpyder]

 jallerton, on 2013-March-06, 13:37, said:

I agree with Frances's first sentence:

I think there is something in her next sentence, too! Presumably, partner may be thinking because their ♥s are shorter than they would like (or, indeed, longer...). Your point about the lack of a raise is relevant, though.