[Kungsgeten]

I just thought that you guys might be interested in our methods over opening 1NT. Relay methods have been discussed over 1NT on this forum before, and people here seem to have an interest in relays in general (at least some of the regular posters).

At first we played a somewhat regular 1NT-system, but partner expressed an interest in being able to relay over the balanced (re)openings too. The goal in our NT system has been to be able to bid most GF hands without using relays, so the relays are only used when "necessary". Comments are welcomed! Here it goes:

1NT (any 4333, 4432 or 5332. As of now, the relays do not allow 6 card minor nor 5422) --

2C "Relay Stayman"
a) INV+ with at least 4-4 majors (but not 5-5)
b) INV with 4 spades
c) Choice of games with 5-3 or 6-4 majors
d) Any hand wanting to use relays
e) A weak hand planning to pass the response
f) GF with 5-5 minors
g) Slammish with diamonds

2D Transfer to hearts
a) INV with 4 hearts, but not 4 spades
b) INV+ with 5+ hearts
c) A hand wanting to play 2H
d) GF with 5-5 majors

2H Transfer to spades
a) 5+ spades, not 4 hearts if INV+
b) INV with 5-5 majors

2S Clubs or weak minor(s)
..2NT Bad clubs
....3m = To play
....Other = Slam interest in clubs, SPL
..3C Good clubs (super accept against a hand transferring to clubs)
....3m = To play
....Other = Slam interest in clubs, SPL

2N Natural INV, no 4 card major

3C Modified Puppet stayman
..3D no 5 card major
....3M 4 cards in other major
..3M 5 card major

3D INV with 6 diamonds

3M 1 card major in (3-1)(5-4) hand

3NT To play

4m South African Texas

4M To play

[Kungsgeten]

The most interesting bid in the system is probably the Stayman bid. Notable is that Stayman shows 4 spades more often than standard, with 4 hearts responder usually holds 4 spades too (except when weak, 5-3 majors or wanting to use relays).

1NT-2C;

2D = No 4+ major
..2H = INV with 5-4 majors (either way)
....2S = 3-3 majors or 3 spades and 2 hearts, minimum
....2N = 3 hearts, 2 spades, minimum
....3H = 3 hearts, 2 spades, max
....3S = 3 spades, 2 hearts, max
....3NT = 3-3 majors, max
..2S = GF relay
....2N = 4-4 minors or a 4333
......3C = relay
........3D = 2-3-4-4
........3H = 3-2-4-4
........3S = 3-3-3-4
........3NT = 3-3-4-3
....3C = 5C (then 3D relay and as below but one step up)
....3D = 2-3-5-3
....3H = 3-2-5-3
....3S = 3-3-5-2
..2N = Natural INV
..3C = GF 5-5 minors
..3D = Slammish with diamonds
..3M = Smolen (also with 5-3)
..3NT = To play

2H = 4+ hearts (may be 4-4 majors)
..2S = GF relay
....2N = 4-4 majors
......3C = relay
........3D = 4-4-2-3
........3H = 4-4-3-2
....3C = 4 clubs or 3-4-3-3
......3D = relay
........3H = 2-4-3-4
........3S = 3-4-2-4
........3NT = 3-4-3-3
....3D = 4 diamonds (3H relay then as above but one step up, and cant be 4333)
....3H = 2-5-3-3
....3S = 3-5-2-3
....3NT = 3-5-3-2
..2N = INV with 4 spades
..3C = GF 5-5 minors
..3D = Slammish with diamonds
..3H = INV
..3NT = Choice of games with 5 spades and 3 hearts

2S = 4+ spades
..2NT = GF relay
....3C = 4+ clubs or 4-3-3-3 (relays as 2H answer above)
....3D = 4+ diamonds
....3H = 5-2-3-3
....3S = 5-3-2-3
....3NT = 5-3-3-2
..3C = GF 5-5 minors
..3D = Slammish with diamonds
..3S = INV
..3NT = Choice of games with 5 hearts and 3 spades

[Kungsgeten]

Our transfers are a bit non-standard too, since partner can transfer to hearts with only a 4 card suit, if INV:

1NT-2D;
2H = The usual bid
..2S = Artificial INV with 5 hearts
..2NT = INV with 4 hearts
..3m = Natural GF
..3H = INV with 6 hearts
..3S = GF with 5-5 majors
Other = 4+ hearts, max hand and values in suit bid

1NT-2H;
2S = Usually not 4+ spades
..2NT = Natural INV with 5 spades
..3m = Natural GF
..3H = INV with 5-5 majors
..3S = INV with 6 spades
Other = 4+ spades, values in suit, not super minimum

[straube]

I've avoided relaying out opener's shapes because...

1) it gives the opponents too much information. I'm usually only interested in finding a major suit fit for game purposes.
2) there isn't enough room for 5422 or 6322 shapes. Opener either has to "lie" or not open 1N with these shapes.
3) the 2C bid is better used for other things....

We use 2C to promise a 4+ major. It can only handle a fraction of responder's patterns so we use splinters and other bids as well to handle others. We really don't have enough room below 3N to show all of responder's unbalanced patterns, so it's better to approximate as many shapely hands as possible...and use room over 3N as spillage (rare unbalanced hands) or slamming balanced hands. Slamming balanced hands can afford to go past 3N.

[rbforster]

Interesting use of Smolen with 5-3 majors.

[Kungsgeten]

Straube:

1. In this NT system we do not rely on relays just to find the correct game. Most tools available in standard NT systems can be used here too, without the need for relays. The relays main purpose is to find tight slams, especially in the minors. If only interested in finding a major suit fit, do not use relays: use 2C stayman (we do not have to relay aftterwards) or 3C puppet stayman or transfers.

2. Yes, this is a problem. We managed to put all 4333, 4432 and 5332 hands into the relay structure without passing 3NT. It would be possible to put 5422 and 6322 in there too, but then you would have to bid 2NT or higher in response to the initial Stayman, which we do not want. We've just excluded these hands from the 1NT opening. However in one sequence in the system (which uses the 1NT module too) 1NT can contain 4441-hands. Here we use 2NT and higher to show these (but in this situation partner is usually GF, but may also be very weak).

3. I think our 2C is pretty standard. It does not promise a 4 card major, but neither does 2C if playing 4-way transfers. However it does not contain 4 hearts unless we also hold 4 spades, unless we're planning to pass the stayman response.


rbforster:

Yes, I like this approach. It has nothing to do with the relay part of the system though. Since we allow 5 card majors in our 1NT opening we also want methods to find a 5-3 (or better) fit in opener's or responder's hand. By using 3C as puppet stayman this problem is solved. 3C promises GF values with at least one 3+ major, but at most 4-3 majors. 1NT-2C; 2M-3NT; shows 3 card support and 5 cards in the other major. This way Smolen does not promise 5-4 majors, but may be done on 5-3.

[Zelandakh]

Kungsgeten, if the aim is to find minor suit fits for slams then why not use the more traditional Baron methods after Stayman? When I was using normal Stayman by choice, I used a 2♠ rebid after a 2♦ or 2♥ response, and a 3♦ rebid after a 2♠ response for this purpose. The 2♠ rebid was range ask Baron while the 3♦ bid was simply minor suit Baron. If I recall correctly, mikeh has also mentioned that he plays relays after Stayman so it might be worth comparing what you have to what he likes.

[MickyB]

I take it 1N:2C, 2D:3N is only bid with 4-4 majors? If so, it should be alerted IMO. I played that for a while, it definitely helps oppo on lead, but it is just one handtype so it's not a big flaw.

I'm not keen on the methods for showing 5-3 majors.

1N:2C, 2H:3N. If this can be either 5341 or 5314, then how can opener judge with Ax KQxx KQJx xxx?

1N:2C, 2D:3S. If this can be either 3532 or 4531, you can't play 3NT with 33(43) opposite the balanced hand.

I'd expect to do better by transferring and bidding 3m/3N on these hands.

[Kungsgeten]

Zelandakh, on 2013-February-28, 08:14, said:

Kungsgeten, if the aim is to find minor suit fits for slams then why not use the more traditional Baron methods after Stayman? When I was using normal Stayman by choice, I used a 2♠ rebid after a 2♦ or 2♥ response, and a 3♦ rebid after a 2♠ response for this purpose. The 2♠ rebid was range ask Baron while the 3♦ bid was simply minor suit Baron. If I recall correctly, mikeh has also mentioned that he plays relays after Stayman so it might be worth comparing what you have to what he likes.

Minor suits are included in the main purpose, but the real purpose is ofcourse that some hands might be interested in knowing opener's full distribution, while taking control and being sure that partner does not pass. Say partner opens 1NT and we hold (53)(32) and slam try values (or even better values). With choice of games, we have no problem bidding a hand with 5-3 majors. What about a slam going hand? Perhaps partner holds 5 cards in the other major, or 5 cards in our 3 card minor? The relays is a slam tool, not the only slam tool, after our 1NT opening.

In my opinion, the drawbacks in our system (compared with the previous, more natural version) are:

- 1NT-2D does not promise 5 hearts.
- 1NT-2C is often done with 4 spades, so the opponent on lead "knows" which major responder has.
- 1NT-2C; 2M-3m; before we used this as natural with 5+ minor. Now these are reserved for fairly rare slam tries.
- 1NT-2C; 2D-2H; before we used 2M in this sequence as INV with 5 card major (2H 5-4, 2S could be 5 card not wanting to play 2NT). Now 2S is a relay and 2H is forcing and INV with 5-4 in either way.

[Kungsgeten]

MickyB, on 2013-February-28, 08:32, said:

I take it 1N:2C, 2D:3N is only bid with 4-4 majors? If so, it should be alerted IMO. I played that for a while, it definitely helps oppo on lead, but it is just one handtype so it's not a big flaw.

I'm not keen on the methods for showing 5-3 majors.

1N:2C, 2H:3N. If this can be either 5341 or 5314, then how can opener judge with Ax KQxx KQJx xxx?

1N:2C, 2D:3S. If this can be either 3532 or 4531, you can't play 3NT with 33(43) opposite the balanced hand.

I'd expect to do better by transferring and bidding 3m/3N on these hands.

I haven't thought about 1N-2C; 2D-3NT; showing 4-4 majors. However, it seems correct.

1N-2C; 2H-3N. Well, it is a tough call. I think you can find many of these type of hands in any NT system? With (53)(41) we could also transfer into our major and then bid 3m, but ofcourse this may have the problem of missing the 5-3 major fit in opener's major.

1N-2C; 2D-3S. I do not quite get you here.. If opener holds 33(43) in this sequence she'll bid 4H. If opener holds 33(43) and game going values she'll bid 1NT-3C, bidding 3NT if partner responds 3D.

[Zelandakh]

Kungsgeten, on 2013-February-28, 08:43, said:

Say partner opens 1NT and we hold (53)(32) and slam try values (or even better values). With choice of games, we have no problem bidding a hand with 5-3 majors. What about a slam going hand? Perhaps partner holds 5 cards in the other major, or 5 cards in our 3 card minor? The relays is a slam tool, not the only slam tool, after our 1NT opening.

Well, if you happened to be playing 2♣ Puppet, you could start with that. If partner bids 2M there is a fit; if not then you rebid 2 of the other major and then follow with 3 of the 5 card major. That shows a GF+ hand with 5-3 in the majors. But yes, it is usually difficult to find a 5-3 minor fit below 3NT in standard methods when Opener holds the 5 card minor.

[MickyB]

Kungsgeten, on 2013-February-28, 08:55, said:

N-2C; 2D-3S. I do not quite get you here.. If opener holds 33(43) in this sequence she'll bid 4H. If opener holds 33(43) and game going values she'll bid 1NT-3C, bidding 3NT if partner responds 3D.

Most experts believe that 5332 opposite 4333 belongs in 3NT, not in the 5-3 major fit. Some believe this is true even if the major fit is 5-4.

We would bid 1N:2D, 2H:3N, P when opener 4333 and responder is 5332. If you start 1N:2C, 2D:3S you'll play 4H with these hands.

[straube]

Here's what we play. The emphasis is on showing responder's shape instead of opener's in accordance with the Balanced Hand Principle...

2C...stayman promising a major
.....2D-none
..........2H-majors, p/c
..........2S-GI 5 spades, says nothing about hearts
..........2N-GI (could be 4S/5H with bad hearts)
..........3C-puppets 3D to show various 4M/5m patterns
..........3D-4S/5H GI
..........3H-4-1-3-5 or 4-1-2-6 slammish
..........3S-1-4-3-5 or 1-4-2-6 slammish
..........3N-likely both majors
..........4C-4-2-1-6
..........4D-2-4-1-6
.....2H-four hearts
..........2S-GI 5 spades
..........2N-GI 4 spades
..........3C-puppets to 3D to show 4 spades and unspecified shortness
..........3D-size ask with heart fit
..........3H-4-1-3-5 or 4-1-2-6
..........3S-4-3-1-5 or 4-2-1-6
..........3N-spade splinter!
..........4m-splinter
.....2S-four spades
..........similar to hearts

2D...transfer, 5 cards
......2S-GI, artificial
......2N-GF with a minor.
...........3C-no heart fit
.................3D-short spade
.................3H-3-5-4-1
.................3S-3-5-1-4
.................3N-no shortness or not slamming
.................4C-2-6-4-1
.................4D-2-6-1-4
...........etc. with heart fit
.....3C-GF, 4 spades
..........3D-no fit, asks shortness
.................3H-4-5-3-1
.................3S-4-5-1-3
.................3N-no shortness or not slamming
......3D-5 clubs
......3H-5 diamonds
......3S-self splinter
......3N-true COG (likely 5H332)
......4m-self splinter

2H-transfer
......2N-GF with a minor
......3C-GF with four hearts
......3D-GI+ with 5/5 in the majors
......3H-five clubs
......3S-five diamonds

2S-size ask
......2N-weak
......3C-strong
...........P-club bust
...........3D-short club, 3+M and 4+D
.................suits are bid up the line until a fit is found
...........3H-balanced slam try
...........3S-club slam try

2N-puppet stayman, usually not slammish
......3C-not 4333
..........3D-four hearts
..........3H-four spade
..........3S-1-3-(54)
......3D-unspecified 4333
...........3H-four spades
...........3S-four hearts
......3M-5 of major

3C-transfer
......3H-5/5 minors
......3S-diamond slam try

3D-short diamonds, 3+M and 4+C
.....suits bid up the line until a fit is found

3H-short hearts, 3+S and 4+m
.....3S-shows 4S
.....4S-shows 5S

3S-short spades, 4H and 4+m

[Kungsgeten]

MickyB, on 2013-February-28, 09:16, said:

We would bid 1N:2D, 2H:3N, P when opener 4333 and responder is 5332. If you start 1N:2C, 2D:3S you'll play 4H with these hands.

There's nothing preventing you from doing this in our structure. 1NT-2red; 2M-3NT; shows GF values with a 5 card major. On the other hand opener should probably bid 4M with 3 card support, in my opinion. Does this sequence, in your system, show specifically 5332 or can it be other patterns too?

I think Meckwell play 1NT-2red; 2M-3M; as "opener must bid 4M with support" and 1NT-2red; 2M-3NT; as "opener may pass, even with support". This could be applied to our system too, without changing the relay portion of the system.

[Free]

I used to play relays over 1NT but I don't like them anymore because you have to give some relatively frequent stuff up to gain only in very rare situations. You also lose flexibility because you can't open 1NT on 5422's, 4441's and 6322's anymore (unless you can relay them out). The only time they can be useful is when responder is also balanced with slam interest.

The Smolen approach is interesting. I used to have a way to show 5-3M, but combining them with Smolen is actually a nice idea.

[MickyB]

Kungsgeten, on 2013-February-28, 11:02, said:

There's nothing preventing you from doing this in our structure. 1NT-2red; 2M-3NT; shows GF values with a 5 card major. On the other hand opener should probably bid 4M with 3 card support, in my opinion. Does this sequence, in your system, show specifically 5332 or can it be other patterns too?

Usually 5332, yes. Occasionally 5422 with honours in both doubletons. Otherwise we show our second suit. I think this style is pretty common on BBF and amongst experts in general.

The point that I am trying to make is that if you still transfer on 5332s [to keep 3N in the picture] and you still transfer on 5431s [to allow you to reach 4M in a 5-2 or 4-3 fit, or 5m in a 4-4 fit, when partner has weakness opposite your shortage] then you are left with no 5-3 hands to go through Stayman.

I was thinking recently about ways to bid 53(32) as responder in case opener is (52)33 that still allow you to play 3NT opposite (4333) - eg transfer then 3H to show 5332 in any order, now 3S from opener shows five cards in the other major - but I doubt the gains are worth it.

[Kungsgeten]

Free: I agree on the semibalanced hands. To tell the truth I wasn't to excited myself to use relays over 1NT. However I like the fact that we do not have to use them. My partner is pretty conservative about opening 1NT, and would like to exclude these semibalanced hands anyway. He also do not like opening 1NT with a 5 card major, but right now we play that anyway (even though the system would allow not opening 1NT with 5 card majors). We'll see if they'll bring something good to the table.

MickyB: I think the problem with 5431 hands is that opener doesn't know your shortness (perhaps they do in your system). We can show a five card major and four card minor by transferring and then bid 3m. However we say that these hands should have a good reason to bid this way, and that partner probably should show support for the minor right away. This sequence is thus more likely for slam investigation. In the sequence 1NT-2red; 2M-3m; do you play 3OM as natural? Otherwise there might be 5431-hands with 5-3 majors which want to bid Smolen?

[Zelandakh]

MickyB, on 2013-February-28, 11:39, said:

I was thinking recently about ways to bid 53(32) as responder in case opener is (52)33 that still allow you to play 3NT opposite (4333) - eg transfer then 3H to show 5332 in any order, now 3S from opener shows five cards in the other major - but I doubt the gains are worth it.

As above Micky, this is easy if you play 2♣ as Puppet Stayman. On the other hand, you have to give something else up (eg Crawling Stayman) for this and that may well be more important to you.

[Kungsgeten]

I figured that there's actually some space for semibalanced hands in the relay structure. Hands with 4 hearts, 2 spades and 5-2 minors can be included. Hands with 5-4 minors and 2-2 majors (or 6-3-2-2 with 6 card major if one considers that option better) may also be included, all while relaying without passing 3NT and still have the option to use "normal" NT methods:

5-4 minors:
1NT-2C;

2D = no major
..2S = GF relay
....2N = 4-4 minors or 4333
....3C = 5332 with 5 clubs
....3D = 5-4 minors, 2-2 majors
......3H = relay
........3S = 2-2-4-5
........3N = 2-2-5-4
....3H+ = zoom with 5332 and 5 diamonds

4 hearts, 5 card minor
1NT-2C;

2H = 4+ hearts
..2S = GF relay
....2N = 4 spades or 5 card minor
......3C = relay
........3D = 4-4-2-3
........3H = 4-4-3-2
........3S = 2-4-2-5
........3N = 2-4-5-2
....3C = 4 clubs
....3D = 4 diamonds
....3H+ = zoom with 5 hearts