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is this a retarded bid that makes sense for once?

#1 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 03:24

all vul at mps, RHO deals

1-p-1-p
1NT-2

on

Qx
Tx
Kx
T98xxxx
?
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 04:48

No I don't think so. 2 here would make sense with something like xx-KQxx-Ax-Qxxxx, assuming that double in this position would be penalties. Even if 2 here shows this hand, what's the point? Maybe 3 would show a and too weak for an immediate WJO. But vulnerable that would be suicide.

So with this hand I would pass.
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#3 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 05:07

I think this 2 bid shows diamonds and clubs.

It's unlikely that I have just clubs, want to bid now, and didn't want to bid earlier. With Gwnn's hand I'm unconvinced that it's safer to bid 2 now than 3 on the previous round. I wouldn't do either, though I'd be a bit nervous about passing throughout.

With Helene's hand (xx-KQxx-Ax-Qxxxx), I'd make a takeout double. This hand-type is much more common than a trap-pass, and doubling rather than bidding 2 has the advantage that it can be left in.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 06:56

Usually I laugh about people who pass first and then overcall (behind their backs of course, I am polite). But here I think that the delayed 2C is ok. Contrary to gnasher I am convinced that it is safer to bid 2C now than to jump to 3C on the previous round.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#5 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 07:06

View Posthan, on 2013-February-14, 06:56, said:

Usually I laugh about people who pass first and then overcall (behind their backs of course, I am polite). But here I think that the delayed 2C is ok. Contrary to gnasher I am convinced that it is safer to bid 2C now than to jump to 3C on the previous round.

Much safer, surely it's Ghestem on the first round.
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#6 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 07:41

Personally I think bidding 2C is just a foolish waste of time.
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#7 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 11:10

I don't think your hand quite makes it but I think you have the right idea. If it was xx xx Kx QJT9xxx then I would do it if I were too scared to bid 3 the first time (and I think being too scared for that r/r at mps is reasonable), or maybe you are playing intermediate jump overcalls vul or something.
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#8 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 12:41

This delayed 2 is a total waste of time. We don't take space away, we don't want partner to lead when he has Kx for example, and with this vulnerability we don't even want to find a sacrifice.
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#9 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 12:55

View PostFree, on 2013-February-14, 12:41, said:

This delayed 2 is a total waste of time. We don't take space away, we don't want partner to lead when he has Kx for example, and with this vulnerability we don't even want to find a sacrifice.

You might want to.... play 2! Pretend partner is a 4441 12 count. What would you rather do, play 2 or have partner lead a heart against 1NT?

(I meant that about my example hand, not the hand gwnn held where I still don't love it although I think it has merit)
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#10 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 13:01

View Postpaulg, on 2013-February-14, 07:06, said:

Much safer, surely it's Ghestem on the first round.


Only if you are a respected player. B-)
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#11 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 13:08

View PostFree, on 2013-February-14, 12:41, said:

This delayed 2 is a total waste of time. We don't take space away, we don't want partner to lead when he has Kx for example, and with this vulnerability we don't even want to find a sacrifice.

I wouldn't commit the bid, but it is incorrect to say that it is a 'total waste'.

LHO may very well be intending to bid 2 as some form of new minor. They may have the agreement that double fills in for that bid, but I would expect most to play, with or without express agreement, that double is penalty.

One therefore may create a problem for LHO for which he has no solution that doesn't entail risk that his partner will misunderstand.

How would one bid an invitational hand with 5 after the 2 call? There are other possible problems as well, but while I have no problem with the concept of bidding 2, having initially passed, I'd want the jdonn hand for such action.
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 13:16

If I bid 2, it would be because I wanted to play 2 rather than defend 1NT, or 3 rather than defend two of a major.

I wouldn't want to have the jdonn hand for this action, because that would imply that I played Ghestem.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#13 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 13:25

View Postgnasher, on 2013-February-14, 13:16, said:

If I bid 2, it would be because I wanted to play 2 rather than defend 1NT, or 3 rather than defend two of a major.

I wouldn't want to have the jdonn hand for this action, because that would imply that I played Ghestem.


Play 1NT as natural or weak with clubs - that frees up 3 for ...

Er, strong?
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#14 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2013-February-14, 16:15

View Postgnasher, on 2013-February-14, 13:16, said:

If I bid 2, it would be because I wanted to play 2 rather than defend 1NT, or 3 rather than defend two of a major.

I wouldn't want to have the jdonn hand for this action, because that would imply that I played Ghestem.

A significant number of US players (not including jdonn, but including jlall) play intermediate jump overcalls when vulnerable.
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#15 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2013-February-15, 00:12

Quote

What would you rather do, play 2♣ or have partner lead a heart against 1NT?


I'll be very unhappy if partner leads out of turn against 1 (or 3) notrump.

I think I may well be happier leading a club than playing in clubs however.
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