[ahydra]

So my partner and I just got back from a Swiss Teams. I mean just got back quite literally as his car struggled to get up some of the hills in the snow - but thankfully we made it...

We came 4th overall - perhaps might have done better if I'd played some hands more carefully, including a grand slam (28-imp swing)!! But I'd appreciate some input on these.

1) ATB:

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I'm sure you can all spot the flaw in this slam. We play first and second round cue bids and 4NT RKC 3041 is the only ace-asking method we have. How could we do better here?

2) ATB:

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Do you want to be in the slam (it goes off on a spade lead)? If so, who needed to do more? (The 3D overcall was actually an eight-card suit. Our team-mates chose 4D at the other table which pretty much forced them into the slam after North bid 4H)

And the bonus question. You have ♠932 ♥T974 ♦QJ52 ♣T2 and partner opens 1H in fourth seat (red vs white). Do you raise?

Thanks,

ahydra

[aguahombre]

IMO, the 2nd one is just fine.

On the first one, it is a mindset thing. When we are within overcall range opposite a non-forcing (though constructive) advance, we are looking for strain and possible game. Absent extreme fit/controls/void, we are not looking for perfection versus bringing back a minus.

That might be boring Bridge to some. We are willing to be the pair who just plods along.

Edit: We would be the pair who upon comparison who hear our teammates apologize for minus 50 in 6C and would calmly say, "Gain two". No, we didn't double; they were in seven (different hand).

[SteveMoe]

4th is good! Well done!

Hand 1):
The way the auction unfolded, North's 3N then 4♦ all but promises 1st round control (in effect, bidding ♦ twice]. Instead of 4♦ by North I think 4♥ shows actual holding in both reds better, and might keep you out of 6♦ too. At least you'll both know no one has 1st round ♦ control.

Hand 2):
Only if we need a slam in the 64th board of the finals of the Vanderbilt would I want to think about finding 6, and only if I were desperate. Staying out of beatable slams is a good way to win. Might be tempted to ask teammates about a ♠ lead.... I would be happy to stay out of this one.

[rmnka447]

Hand 1 may be a hand for discussion between you and partner. Did South take North's 4 ♦ bid as showing the ace after having already shown a stopper for NT? In any case, South can't be sure that you have enough aces to make slam. Your ask asking choice gets you too high if North has only one, so can't be used. So, I think the best South can do is bid 5 ♣ and leave it up to North. If you miss slam, you can chalk it up to the vagaries of choosing to cue 1st or 2nd round controls. But that will likely be made up on other hands where doing so may let you get there when cueing in order won't.

I think aquahombre's comments are well made about this hand.

Hand 2 is just fine as bid. If North bids his controls the opponents almost surely will find the ♠ lead and defeat the slam.

Bonus - I'm very tempted to raise to 2 ♥ because of the red pockets. Any thin VUL game that makes is probably a match winner.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 I dont understand the bidding by South.
If he wants to explore slam, why does he not bid 4D, instead of 3D, given that he started with a limit bid?
In summary South made a NF bid, got the information, that partner has wastage, and drives all himself to slam,
and you are seriously asking for ATB?

#2 No, I dont want to be in slam.
Even assuming when finesses are against East, making a single one better than a 50% proposition, West was
in 3rd hand, facing a apssed partner, which means the 3D could be wide ranging, so the 50% does not improve
a lot, and you need the club finesse at a min, and after that you are still not home.
I do think the bidding is ok, although I would not have made the slam move myself, but this depends on the range
of the 3H bid, which is partnership agreement.

#B If I have a 4-7 raise available, e.g. via a forcing NT, I do, otherwise not.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2013-February-12, 02:07, said:

#1 I dont understand the bidding by South.
If he wants to explore slam, why does he not bid 4D, instead of 3D, given that he started with a limit bid?
In summary South made a NF bid, got the information, that partner has wastage, and drives all himself to slam,
and you are seriously asking for ATB?

It seems he was hoping for A♦ instead of K♦/J♠ in otherwise the same hand, and maybe he expected that after 4♦. I think it's difficult for N. S could have more or less the nuts other than xx in ♦ so all he had to tell S was that there weren't 2 diamond losers and that his stop wasn't QJx, so the cue bid is not silly. If you have a way of signing off in 5N after blackwood then S could have bid 4N and then signed off in 5N, surviving if opener has ♦AQ.

[rhm]

ahydra, on 2013-February-10, 16:56, said:

1) ATB:

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At the point of the 4♣ bid, North is missing 4 key cards plus the queen of clubs.
With a void in diamonds South would surely have bid differently
Does North seriously believe South can have 4 of these 5 cards and South would still have bid a non-forcing 2♥?
You must be joking. Besides if that is the case where are West's opening bid values?

You can see this mistake all the time.
After trump agreement in a game forcing sequence people invariably start automatic control bidding for fear of missing slam, whether that makes sense or not.
After all control bidding marks you as an expert, doesn't it?

Quote

2) ATB:

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Do you want to be in the slam (it goes off on a spade lead)? If so, who needed to do more? (The 3D overcall was actually an eight-card suit. Our team-mates chose 4D at the other table which pretty much forced them into the slam after North bid 4H)

I would expect the ♦A lead most of the time and a few times another non spade lead. Slam is excellent, but it depends on the sequence by which you will reach 6♥.

Quote

And the bonus question. You have ♠932 ♥T974 ♦QJ52 ♣T2 and partner opens 1H in fourth seat (red vs white). Do you raise?

No, but a raise is better than a Bergen raise.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

Hand one is very easy, if you want to bid over 3NT, then you do it on first place, showing your hand: jump tp 4♦ splinter, so that partner realices how bad his ♦K is and stops before its too late.

Another aproach is that north uses his fingers and realices that the minimum for slam is that partner holds 4 of ♥A ♦A ♣AKQ and since that is not possible since he is limited by the 2♥ bid he should not cuebid, specially not twice.

[ArtK78]

Agree with everyone about the 2nd hand.

As for the first hand, my rebid on the North cards would be 2NT. I have enough to move forward opposite an encouraging but not forcing 2♥, I have diamonds stopped and I have something in clubs. Why am I introducing J9xx of clubs?

South may very well continue with 3♣, and I will bid 3♠, hopefully conveying to partner doubt about strain. We will get to either 3NT, 4♠ or 5♣, but slam will never be on the radar screen (4♠ is a contract that no one mentioned, but it is quite reasonable - not as easy as 5♣, but certainly better than 6♣ ).

[Cyberyeti]

A point I don't see addressed on the first hand is "what do you overcall on". With some people a 16 count in the south hand would only be an invite, for others it might be closer to 11 or 12 max. This governs whether N can believe a slam is on. Can S hold xx, Axxxx, A, KQ10xx and treat it as an invite ?

[kgr]

SteveMoe, on 2013-February-10, 17:48, said:

Hand 1):
The way the auction unfolded, North's 3N then 4♦ all but promises 1st round control (in effect, bidding ♦ twice].

I wonder if this is this true for all experts?
Can North not have something like ♦QTxx for 3NT; and now cue ♦ to show that he has in fact 2nd round control?

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-February-12, 09:56, said:

A point I don't see addressed on the first hand is "what do you overcall on". With some people a 16 count in the south hand would only be an invite, for others it might be closer to 11 or 12 max. This governs whether N can believe a slam is on. Can S hold xx, Axxxx, A, KQ10xx and treat it as an invite ?

I think in order to explore your point, we would have to ask if the hand you give for South could be treated as a NON-FORCING invite, per the OP conditions.

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2013-February-12, 10:11, said:

I think in order to explore your point, we would have to ask if the hand you give for South could be treated as a NON-FORCING invite, per the OP conditions.

Not for us, our overcalls are sound, but for the crew that overcall on AQxxx and out quite possibly.

[mikeh]

So far nobody has commented on the 3♣ call by N on hand 1. I think it is a terrible call.

N has to do something since he has a good hand opposite an 'encouraging' 2♥, and 2♠ would sound (and may be) weak, not to mention suggesting a 6+ suit. But what the heck is wrong with 2N?

I would far rather show my good hand with 1+ stoppers than suggest playing in a suit that is Jxxx!

In addition, 2N suggests that we are not completely devoid of heart support, and surely the stiff K is as good as xx should partner insist on hearts.

As for the later bidding: there is basic rule about looking for slam in a secondary suit: suit quality. Once N had committed the 3♣ bid, he has to realize that S will expect, as a 'given', that the club suit is at least longer if not much stronger. He has to slow the auction down, whereas he really never took his foot off of the brake pedal.

However, it all left the rails when he bid 3♣.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

ahydra, on 2013-February-10, 16:56, said:

1) ATB:

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Using Transfer Advances:

( 1D ) - 1S - 2D!
.......... 2H - 3C [ natural ]
..........3NT - 4C
.......... 4D![ kickback ] - 5C [ 4th step = 2 + ♣Q ]
..........pass [ missing 2 key cards ]

[ArtK78]

mikeh, on 2013-February-12, 10:34, said:

So far nobody has commented on the 3♣ call by N on hand 1. I think it is a terrible call.

ArtK78, on 2013-February-12, 09:16, said:

As for the first hand, my rebid on the North cards would be 2NT. I have enough to move forward opposite an encouraging but not forcing 2♥, I have diamonds stopped and I have something in clubs. Why am I introducing J9xx of clubs?

Mike:

You have to read a little more carefully.

By the way, I didn't see the bonus question. Do I raise? No. I have to limit my hand. If I get a second chance to bid later I will show my heart support. But I will not raise on a 3-4-4-2 3 count (and the 3 count may be totally worthless to partner). I am not worried about competition from the opps. They have already both passed at least one time each.

[ahydra]

Thanks all for the helpful replies I was North in both cases. I see I'm getting a lot of the blame for the first hand, bidding 3C instead of the more suitable 2NT being the main point. The intention of the diamond cuebid was to clarify that my stopper was in fact a control rather than Q10x. Perhaps South should bid 4D (SPL) instead of 3D->4C, it looks more descriptive.

We make mediumly-light overcalls. So AQ10xx Jx xxxx xx would be enough NV, perhaps a bit more when vul. That 13-count that Cyberyeti posted is therefore not quite enough to make a forcing response. (Really like the idea of transfer advances btw, and also transfer responses after opponents make a takeout X. Unfortunately partner doesn't like playing tons of gadgets)

On the second one here was the West hand: ♠T4 ♥7 ♦AQ987532 ♣72. I believe the auction went 1H-(4D)-4H-(p); 4NT-zero keycards response; 6H. Who would lead a spade here? FWIW my team-mate led a club. (This seems to be a rare case of high-level pre-empts backfiring and pushing opps into slam, rather than keeping them out of slam!)

As for the bonus question: well I am quite surprised to see people not raising. Both my partner and I thought "I wouldn't raise, but I bet experts would". The actual question was whether this is good enough for a semi-positive response to our forcing 2-level opening bids, and if it's not worth a raise with 4 cards then it's definitely not worth a semi-positive which promises only 3. Partner's hand was ♠65 ♥AKQ52 ♦K ♣AK543; they missed the game on the other table as well.

ahydra

[ArtK78]

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:28, said:

As for the bonus question: well I am quite surprised to see people not raising. Both my partner and I thought "I wouldn't raise, but I bet experts would". The actual question was whether this is good enough for a semi-positive response to our forcing 2-level opening bids, and if it's not worth a raise with 4 cards then it's definitely not worth a semi-positive which promises only 3. Partner's hand was ♠65 ♥AKQ52 ♦K ♣AK543; they missed the game on the other table as well.

ahydra

One of the rules that I use to determine whether a hand is good enough to open 2♣ is whether it will make game opposite the right 4333 zero count. This hand comes a little short of meeting that criterion - opposite a 3-3-3-4 zero count you are only about 37% to make 4♥, as you need 3-2 hearts and 2-2 clubs. So I would open 1♥, as it appears everyone did, and I would miss game playing opposite myself.

[P_Marlowe]

ahydra, on 2013-February-12, 16:28, said:

<snip>
As for the bonus question: well I am quite surprised to see people not raising. Both my partner and I thought "I wouldn't raise, but I bet experts would". The actual question was whether this is good enough for a semi-positive response to our forcing 2-level opening bids, and if it's not worth a raise with 4 cards then it's definitely not worth a semi-positive which promises only 3. Partner's hand was ♠65 ♥AKQ52 ♦K ♣AK543; they missed the game on the other table as well.

ahydra

Me going for the raise was also influenced by the fact, that we usually open strong 2-suiter on the 1 level, which works, as long as
you stretch to show the fit.
Your partners hand would be a good example for a strong 2H opening, even without the king of diamonds.

And sometimes you get rescued by the opponents, who happen to have a 8 card spade fit, and are green vs. red, so part of the blame for
not reaching game goes to the opponents, or praise, if they were able to pickup a tell.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[SteveMoe]

kgr, on 2013-February-12, 10:11, said:

I wonder if this is this true for all experts?
Can North not have something like ♦QTxx for 3NT; and now cue ♦ to show that he has in fact 2nd round control?

Seems to me if we can bid 3N then control bid the ♦K, we must use RKB/Minorwood/Redwood to check Keys. Not having a good Keycard tool (especially when the minors are in focus) seems incongruous with Italianate control bids. Under the constraints I'd prefer the 4♥ control bid to the 4♦ control bid because it will be less ambiguous to partner.