[Wayne_LV]

My regular partner and I are both members of BIL and IAC. We regularly attend many of the execellent classes offered by both of these clubs.

We mostly play in BBO Club games and almost exclusively at IMPs.

Neither of us have any interest in accumulating Masters Points or BBO points.
We just try to play a good game and minimize our obvious errors.
I post all of our results into a complex Excel Spreadsheet that provides excellent capablilities to evaluate various bidding situations.

Examples:

• Are we stopping at 2NT too often on hands that make 3NT?
  
• Are our penalty doubles effective?
  
• Are we chronically missing game contracts?
  
• Are we chronically missing slam contracts?
  
• How effective is our defense of suit contracts?
  
• How effective is our defense of NT contracts?

... and a large number of other scenarios to find weaknesses in our system and our use of the system.

Both of us are in our 70's and suffer from age related reduction of brain power. i.e. "Keep It Simple Stupid"

We have recently undergone a serious overhaul of our system to eliminate seldom used and ineffective conventions and treatments.

The major casualties were:

• 2/1
  
• Weak NT (12-14), Moscow Escapes
  
• lebensohl
  
• Smolen
  
• 4-way transfers
  
• Cappelletti

Reasons: (NOTE: Reasons are opinions and may be highly controversial. But, reviews of 1000's of our boards support the opinions.)

• 2/1 hands are as scarce as hen's teeth and those can be handled just as well using Standard American (SAYC like) bidding.
  
• The weak NT is higly effective against weak opps, less effective vs. good players. The edge is not worth the baggage.
  
• Stolen Bid Doubles and jump responses after partner's x of opp' weak 2 is less complicated and almost as effective.
  
• Smolen cannot be used with Puppet Stayman over 1NT, a treatment we added for a strong 1NT allowing 5 card majors.
  
• 4-way transfers cannot be used with Puppet Stayman over 1NT and transfers to minors for slam exploration are very rare.
  
• Cappelletti was dropped and DONT used over opp's Weak NT. We encounter Weak NT very seldom and most have an escape from 1Nx anyway.

We believe (and our scores support this) the changes do not seriously affect our ability to compete against our normal opponents who are mostly Intermediate and Advanced, and a few self-proclaimed Experts.

We have a website that documents our current system at: https://sites.google...site/wpr052842/

I would much appreciate a review or our system and any and all suggestions for improvements. I warn you any suggestions for arcane and complex methods or conventions will not be seriously entertained.

Anyone interested in a free copy of my Excel Spreadsheet for BBO hand analyis may send a request to me via the forum email (be sure to include a return email address). It is only set up for IMP scored boards and comes with no warranty. In order to use the Excel Spreadsheet, you must have a legal copy of MS Office or Excel. A good working knowledge of Excel Data Bases, including use of boolean criteria settings is highly recommended. The data base will be cleared and a set of instructions can be accessed via a tab in the spreadsheet as to how to cut and paste your IMP boards from BBO MyHands to the spreadsheet and perform a few simple criteria searches. This is not a commercial product, but one I find to be of immense help in improving a regular BBO partnership.

[Wayne_LV]

This is the complete and intended post. Evidently some attempts to review the post before actually making it were in fact posted. I apologize for any inconvenience.

[MickyB]

Wayne_LV, on 2013-February-12, 14:41, said:

This is the complete and intended post. Evidently some attempts to review the post before actually making it were in fact posted. I apologize for any inconvenience.

Ah, I just assumed you'd missed the 'P' out of the title

I'd suggest Landy instead of DONT and Stayman instead of Puppet - the latter makes it hard to bid hands with both majors that aren't worth a game-force, especially hands that want to play in game only if they find a fit, e.g. (54)(31)s with 7 or 8 points.

[Siegmund]

A few quick comments:

Quote

2/1 hands are as scarce as hen's teeth and those can be handled just as well using Standard American (SAYC like) bidding.

I can admire that, having played souped-up SA for a very long time in preference to 2/1. Both systems, however, leave lots of room for fine-tuning on the second and third rounds of the auction.

Quote

The weak NT is higly effective against weak opps, less effective vs. good players. The edge is not worth the baggage.

The first half is true, in my experience. Though I am not sure exactly what baggage you mean. Just worried about the ethical implications of a system that caters to beating up weaker players?

Quote

Stolen Bid Doubles and jump responses after partner's x of opp' weak 2 is less complicated and almost as effective.

I'm sorry, but we are on different planets, if you find stolen bid doubles an effective method (over anything other than 2C.) There are several alternatives - Lebensohl, Rubensohl, etc - out there. But better for you to play whatever method you like until you run into a problem hand, then find a method that allows you to bid the problem hand, than blindly play something because someone else recommends it.

Quote

Smolen cannot be used with Puppet Stayman over 1NT, a treatment we added for a strong 1NT allowing 5 card majors.
4-way transfers cannot be used with Puppet Stayman over 1NT and transfers to minors for slam exploration are very rare.

Does not compute. Nothing stopping you from using these conventions together if you choose. (And nothing stopping you from opening 1NT with a 5-card major without playing Puppet. People were doing that for years before Puppet ever became popular.) But more importantly -- missed minor-suit slams are a gaping weak spot in most people's 1NT systems, and a huge opportunity for you to turn a profit by improving your system, rather than abandoning that area.

[Wayne_LV]

Baggage means the memory required to remember all of the bids that change as a result of playing Weak NT including an escape from 1Nx
Ethical implications? All systems are designed to take advantage of weaker players at all levels.

We played lebensohl for a long time and Stolen Bid Doubles and jump responses to partner's x of opp's weak 2's does just a good a job with a lot less to remember.

Puppet Stayman over 1NT solves the problem of opening 1NT with no good rebid to show 15-17 hcp with 5-3-3-2 distribution, allowing the 8 card major fit to still be found.

You cannot play Smolen if using 2♣ as puppet since 2NT response shows neither 4 or 5 card major and a there is no room to jump to your 3 of your 4 card major.

I don't think the baggage required to play 4-way transfers is worth the gain to explore minor suit slams, considering bidding the gap to super accept and remembering that 2NT is not an invitation in NT but a transfer to diamonds. A few bidding slips can cost you more than the bonus of finding the occasional minor suit slam after a 1NT opening. Few players are able to find those slams even using 4-way transfers and that buffers from huge swings on those hands anyway. A typical BBO board with ANY slam will most often find 2 or more pairs not even in game. Of 1498 IMP boards we have played since 1-1-2013, there have been 2 minor suit slams bid against us. 1 made, 1 was off 1, and neither started with a 1NT opening bid.

Complex systems are a must at World Class events, but the typical field in BBO Club games is pitifully weak and on weekends it is a joke. When is the last time you saw a 7NTxx contract off by 13 tricks in a serious event?

My point is that a simple, well rehearsed system if more than adequate for casual players in BBO club games .. and that is just what my partner and I are, casual players who like to win.

[BillHiggin]

Quote

[*]Smolen cannot be used with Puppet Stayman over 1NT, a treatment we added for a strong 1NT allowing 5 card majors.
[*]4-way transfers cannot be used with Puppet Stayman over 1NT and transfers to minors for slam exploration are very rare.

There is an alternate approach to "puppet over 1N" that does not require either of these sacrifices (giving up Smolen will end up costing a comparable amount to the gains from puppet). This alternative has the nice characteristic that it has been used and found usefull by true world class players ( see http://justinlall.co...er-a-1n-opener/ ). This involves using two versions of stayman - a 2C response to 1N is normal non-forcing or garbage stayman and a 3C response is "puppet stayman after 1N.
Use the 2C version with all less than game-forcing hands that would normally use stayman and with game-forcing hands that contain both majors (4-4 or 5-4) with all the normal stayman continuations.
Use the 3C version with GF hands with no more than one 4 card major.
The responses to 3C are similar to normal stayman - 3M to show a 5 card major and 3D to deny (but 3D says nothing about openers' 4 card majors). Over openers' 3D rebid, responder may show a 4 card major by the normal Smolen trick of bidding the other one (and responder will not have both majors).
I believe this to be rather simple, and it does not sacrifice Smolen or the minor suit transfers. It does give up the 3C rewponse to 1N which is often "weak, both minors" in 4-way transfers, but that is no real loss (and there is even a simple way to still deal with the weak 5-5 minor hands).

[han]

Wayne, I think you are on the right track. I suggest also skipping the following conventions:

DOPI (comes up less often than any convention you have mentioned)
Help Suit Game try (stop telling your opponents what you hold)
Jacoby 2NT (save your memory for hand types that come up more often)
Puppet Stayman (not worth it)
RKC (don't you hate missing slam holding everything but KQx of trump)
Stolen bid doubles (negative doubles are superior and you already play them)
Support doubles (normal takeout doubles are more flexible)
Western cuebds (The future lies in China)

[Stephen Tu]

Wayne_LV, on 2013-February-13, 05:03, said:

You cannot play Smolen if using 2♣ as puppet since 2NT response shows neither 4 or 5 card major and a there is no room to jump to your 3 of your 4 card major.

This doesn't make sense to me. What does 1nt-2c-2d-2nt-3h mean for you currently? Why can't that be Smolen, without the jump? Why does Smolen have to be a jump? It's not after 2nt-3c-3d-? playing std non-puppet.

That said, I've never been particularly impressed by Smolen transfers. I can't remember the last time having a Smolen hand and thinking "OMG it was such a win for NT bidder to declare vs. the other side". I don't think it really makes a huge difference. To verify this for myself, I dealt several thousand Smolen hands, where NT bidder had 3 spades, fewer than 4 hearts, and South was 54xx in the majors with GF values, and played 4 spades double dummy. Something like 97.5% of the time it made no difference who declared 4s. Of the rest, actually *not* having the NT bidder declare took more tricks a few more times. Now whether this holds up in single-dummy real life I don't know, but I doubt any advantage is large either way.

I can see how pros would like Smolen, since they tend to hog the 1nt openers (opening wider range than their client) to get to be declarer & protect their clients, but I think in reality most of us could get on perfectly fine without Smolen (you do want to be able to show 54 in the majors and get to 4M instead of 3nt, it just doesn't matter that NT bidder declares IMO).

I'm also not so sure how necessary puppet Stayman is either. Some portion of 5-3 major fits play better in NT anyway; if you don't look for the 5-3 that often you don't gain very often, and if you look for the 5-3 a lot one tends to leak information to the opps vs. 1nt-3nt auctions.

Quote

My point is that a simple, well rehearsed system if more than adequate for casual players in BBO club games .. and that is just what my partner and I are, casual players who like to win.

Of course you don't need anything fancy to win at BBO typical levels, just play good sound bridge and don't do the ridiculous things the field does. But eventually you may want to venture out to harder environs like local live tourneys, and eventually NABCs. You will want ways to compete in lower ranking suits after 2M overcalls of your 1nt (hard to do without Lebensohl), compete on hands without long suits (difficult when playing "stolen bid" doubles), and have some accuracy when bidding minor suit slams. You aren't seeing losses in these areas because your competition also lack tools to do this, but if you move up eventually you will see more losses. Now granted these aren't going to be huge components of your score vs. things like basic bidding judgment and cardplay, but it's still good not to give away boards when the field has bids for your hand but you do not.

I do think you should keep lebensohl, and some ways to bid minor suit hands (not necessarily minor transfers, but good to have some systemic options). The other stuff on your list is fine to ditch IMO they don't gain much if anything (Smolen) or aren't good conventions (Capp) so fine. 2/1 to me is simpler than SA, the sequences are rare, but I don't see necessarily where SA clearly eases your burden, perhaps you just bash more and lose a bit of accuracy but the field isn't particularly accurate either so it doesn't end up mattering.

BillHiggin said:

giving up Smolen will end up costing a comparable amount to the gains from puppet

Doubt it, see data above.

[MickyB]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-February-13, 16:23, said:

That said, I've never been particularly impressed by Smolen transfers. I can't remember the last time having a Smolen hand and thinking "OMG it was such a win for NT bidder to declare vs. the other side". I don't think it really makes a huge difference. To verify this for myself, I dealt several thousand Smolen hands, where NT bidder had 3 spades, fewer than 4 hearts, and South was 54xx in the majors with GF values, and played 4 spades double dummy. Something like 97.5% of the time it made no difference who declared 4s.

This strikes me as a particularly poor area for DD analysis. Most of the time, if an aggressive lead is needed, it can be made from either side of the table, while if a passive lead is sufficient then there is usually a suit that happens to not give away a trick. At the table, aggressive leads into opener are more likely to cost than aggressive leads into responder.

It also doesn't take into account that trump leads into opener are more dangerous in practice - with Axx opposite KJTxx, you'd expect declarer to take the line that picks up Qxxx on one side, so leading from xx or xxx will blow a trick iff opener is declaring.

[lalldonn]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-February-13, 16:23, said:

That said, I've never been particularly impressed by Smolen transfers. I can't remember the last time having a Smolen hand and thinking "OMG it was such a win for NT bidder to declare vs. the other side". I don't think it really makes a huge difference. To verify this for myself, I dealt several thousand Smolen hands, where NT bidder had 3 spades, fewer than 4 hearts, and South was 54xx in the majors with GF values, and played 4 spades double dummy. Something like 97.5% of the time it made no difference who declared 4s. Of the rest, actually *not* having the NT bidder declare took more tricks a few more times. Now whether this holds up in single-dummy real life I don't know, but I doubt any advantage is large either way.

Of course it makes a much bigger difference single dummy because they will make lots of wrong leads into the notrump opener's tenaces that wouldn't be made double dummy. There is also a gain because you can show 5 spades and 4 hearts and if partner shows a spade fit you can then offer 3NT (or bid 4 of a minor), ie you gain when responder has spades for the same reason that transfers in general gain, without really losing anything when responder has hearts (was opener's 3♠ bid there very valuable?) Technically if you weren't playing smolen you could have a 3♠ bid over 3♥ show a heart fit, but if you are going to do that why not just play smolen anyway?

I suspect pros like smolen because it seems better, and it's become standard to them anyway. I doubt most of them have really sat around contemplating the pros and cons or attempting to analyze as you have. There are surely bigger fish to fry with their efforts to work on system than removing smolen.

[Stephen Tu]

I'm just saying if they want to ditch smolen they aren't probably losing much. I think the single dummy effects you state are overestimated. Responder can have tenaces reasonably often. Playing weak NT systems I played a lot of the Smolen hands from the opposite side of the table as the strong NT field. I can't really ever remember thinking "OMG I lost another board since str nt hand didn't declare on a Smolen hand". Feels like vast majority of the time it was push, and when it wasn't it was pretty random whether east or west happened to have the hand with a clear lead.

People play it because everyone plays it IMO, and pros/adv don't have trouble remembering it so nobody bothers ditching it, but if some pair is trying to simplify and they have trouble remembering this, I don't think it's going to have measurable effect on their score.

[Zelandakh]

Wayne_LV, on 2013-February-13, 05:03, said:

You cannot play Smolen if using 2♣ as puppet since 2NT response shows neither 4 or 5 card major and a there is no room to jump to your 3 of your 4 card major.

Perhaps you should consider modifying which version of Puppet Stayman you are using. There is no need for this form of 2NT response since you can handle these hands at least as well with a 2♦ response. The situation is not the same as after a 2NT opening and 3♣ Puppet reply. Here is one option for follow-ups:

1NT
==
2♣ = asks if 5 card major held (2♦ = no; 2M = 5 of that major)
2♦ = 5+ hearts
2♥ = 5+ spades
2♠ = (semi-)bal invite or clubs
2NT = 5 spades, 4 hearts, INV
3m = 6+ suit, SI
3M = 44(41)
--

1NT - 2♣; 2♦
==
2♥ = asks if 4 spades held
... - 2♠ = 4 spades
... - ... - 2NT = invite
... - ... - 3m = 4+ suit
... - ... - 3♥ = GF raise
... - ... - 3♠ = invite
... - 2NT = <4 spades, min
... - ... - 3m = 4+ suit
... - ... - 3♥ = stop ask, often 4144
... - ... - 3♠ = 5 spades (implies 3 hearts)
... - others = <4 spades, max (Baron)
2♠ = 4 hearts
2NT = 4 hearts, 4 spades, INV
3♣ = 4+ hearts, 4+ spades, GF (3♦ = 3 card major; 3M = 4 cards; 3NT = 2-2 majors (4♣♦♥ could show 4-4 majors if desired))
3♦ = 5+ diamonds, 4M
3M = (13)(45)

Notice that Smolen is still played in this system, it is just that the sequence is 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3♣; 3♦ - 3M instead of the usual one a round earlier. Unlike Justin, I play the continuation ... - 3♥; 3♠ - 3NT as a slam try rather than a choice of games. That is more for consistency than anything - I have not put any deep thought into which is best here.

As for Stolen Bid Doubles, say your partner opens 1NT and RHO overcalls 2♠. If Double shows 5+ hearts and 2NT is natural, how do you differenciate between GF and competitive hands with a minor here? How do you compete with take-out shape? I think your analysis is highly flawed if you think SBDs do just as good a job here.

Overall though, I agree with your general mentality. A great deal of systems stuff is not necessary to be successful, especially against typical BBO pick-up opponents. Where I think you do need good agreements is in competitive auctions. With my previous partner, before we switched to a really complex system, we had a small system document for a modified Acol system. Nearly all of it was for competition. As you say, if you just bid your games and obvious slams and disturb aggressively, you will show a decent-sized plus on BBO against random opponents. That is not to say that you will not have a larger plus with better methods of course, but it is all a matter of how much effort you want to put into it.

[han]

I think that Stephen is obviously right and I can't believe people are arguing his main point: if you can't remember Smolen, you'd better not play it.

[Wayne_LV]

As a result of postings and further research:

Puppet Stayman over 1NT is out. Normal Stayman is back in.
Smolen is back in.
DOPI is out, never comes up anyway.
4-way transfers are still out. The main disadvantage (for us) to that convention is the need to alert and explain every 2♣ response to 1NT as "may not have a 4-card major". I realize this convention makes minor suit slam exploration easier, but ......... it still does not come up very often. Using a jump to 3 of the long minor with GF values and slam interest works equally well for such hands.

Updated docs at:

https://sites.google.../wpr052842/home

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions.

[han]

4 good choices imo.

[Siegmund]

Quote

The main disadvantage (for us) to that convention is the need to alert and explain every 2♣ response to 1NT as "may not have a 4-card major"

Here's another way to simplify your system.
When you don't have a 4-card major, pass with 8, and bid 3NT with 9. HCP-invitations are not precise enough to gain you anything anyway (in contrast to game tries over 1M-2M, which can show a profit.) Frees up the 2NT response for the toy of your choice, and saves you from having to alert 2C.

Quote

Using a jump to 3 of the long minor with GF values and slam interest works equally well for such hands.

Yes it does. Long as you have enough other sequences available to handle both the weak and the strong hands.

[steve2005]

Wayne_LV, on 2013-February-14, 09:50, said:

4-way transfers are still out. The main disadvantage (for us) to that convention is the need to alert and explain every 2♣ response to 1NT as "may not have a 4-card major".

One method suggested to me to avoid having to alert 2♣ as "may not have 4M" is to use Pass or Blast.
With balanced 9 hcp hands just jump to 3N. no invite given.
With balanced 8 hcp hands just pass 1N.
You can upgrade hand with decent 5-card suits, or good location of high cards.
Thus you don't require Stayman to do bal INV with no 4M

[jgillispie]

Here is and idea...

1NT (15-17)-

2!C-Puppet Stayman
2!D Jacoby Transfer
2!H Jacoby Transfer
2!S Clubs
2!NT 5-4 Majors, either way
3!C Diamonds
3!D 5-5 Majors
3!H Club Slam Try
3!S Diamond Slam Try
3!NT N/A- Baby Blackwood, Control Relay, Minor Transfer, just something intellligent

[Vampyr]

Wayne_LV, on 2013-February-14, 09:50, said:

4-way transfers are still out. The main disadvantage (for us) to that convention is the need to alert and explain every 2♣ response to 1NT as "may not have a 4-card major".

I am not sure that this is a very good reason to make important changes in your system.

[rhm]

The only thing I can agree with is play a system you feel comfortable with and which is appropriate to your capabilities.
For example I prefer 2/1 and do not share your opinion, but if you feel differently go ahead. I doubt it matters.

I suggest invest less in system tinkering. In the end it will not improve your results.

Instead concentrate on improving your judgment and hand evaluation and your technique and try to avoid simple but costly errors.
By technique I do not mean complex squeeze positions, but your capability of analyzing what is going and taking the proper conclusion from that.
One of my favorite Bridge authors is Maurice Harrison Gray. Besides being a world class Bridge player he wrote wonderful articles.
But he died more than 40 years ago and the bidding is stone age Acol. Yet every time I read his articles I learn something.
I have no time looking over your results but I very much doubt that system is responsible for a significant portion of your poor results.
99% of all Bridge players spent far too much time on system and often play a system too complex for them.

Rainer Herrmann