[gnasher]

We have agreed spades. Partner has just bid 4♦, showing a diamond control and denying a club control. We play Last Train, and we play cue-bids at the five-level.

4♥ would be Last Train, showing a club control.

If I bid 5♣ instead of 4♥, what does that show?

If I bid 4♥, partner bids 4♠, and now I bid 5♣, what does that show?

[han]

This is what I play:

If you bid 4H and then 5C over 4S you have shown a heart control. If you bid 5C directly you deny a heart control.

Seems natural.

[Trinidad]

I don't know whether this is universal, but for me "last train" is only "last train" if I abide by partner's decision. If I overrule him, it was just a "normal" cuebid.

 gnasher, on 2013-February-12, 02:00, said:

We have agreed spades. Partner has just bid 4♦, showing a diamond control and denying a club control. We play Last Train, and we play cue-bids at the five-level.

4♥ would be Last Train, showing a club control.

For the record: any bid -other than 4♠- shows a club control. So last train shows a club control and:
- either a hand that isn't sure there are 12 tricks*
- or a hand that is sure of 12 tricks and has a heart control

 gnasher, on 2013-February-12, 02:00, said:

If I bid 5♣ instead of 4♥, what does that show?

1st round club control, no heart control, 12 tricks

 gnasher, on 2013-February-12, 02:00, said:

If I bid 4♥, partner bids 4♠, and now I bid 5♣, what does that show?

1st round club control, 1st/2nd round heart control, 12 tricks

Rik

* For me slam bidding consists of two parts 1) establish that we have 12 tricks, 2) establish that they don't have 2 before that (controls). So when I write "12 tricks" I mean "the potential to take 12 tricks, not looking at the control situation (which might mean that they take 2 first)".

[Trinidad]

Seems like Han and I agree. That should be the end of the discussion.

Rik

[andy_h]

Something similar:
http://www.bridgebas...49237-double-q/

[JLOGIC]

 han, on 2013-February-12, 04:15, said:

This is what I play:

If you bid 4H and then 5C over 4S you have shown a heart control. If you bid 5C directly you deny a heart control.

Seems natural.

Yeah this

[Codo]

I play it this way:

4♥ does not show nor deny a heart control.

Without a heart control, partner must bid 4 ♠. If I bid on, I obviously have a heart control.

With a heart control, partner will bid on- usually with RKCB, very seldom with further control bids.

So, if I bid 5 club directly, I show both controls in hearts and clubs and that I am not interessting in asking or answering RCKB.

So on balance, I win over the "usual" style if I just play 4 ♠ instead of 5 ♠ without a heart control.

[han]

Codo, how do you stop in 4S when partner has a heart control but neither has real slam interest? How do you find slam when we have a minimum with a heart control and opener has a big hand without?

[benlessard]

How about

4NT = keycard (I have H+C controls)

4H-4S-4nt = Im lacking a H control so reply keycard if you have a H control or bid 5S if not (denying H control) or you can do the otherway around if you prefer.

There is 2 upside you can ask for keycards even if you dont have a H control (fairly frequent) rather than bidding 5C and praying. Plus 4H followed by 5C become a void somewhere not just a lack of H control.


The downside is that with 2+Q and a H control opener has to bid 5NT not 5S (it can be dangerous)

[Zelandakh]

 han, on 2013-February-13, 08:33, said:

Codo, how do you stop in 4S when partner has a heart control but neither has real slam interest? How do you find slam when we have a minimum with a heart control and opener has a big hand without?

I would assume he plays some kind of Serious/Frivolous beforehand and is assuming that we are in a serious auction at this stage.

[Codo]

 han, on 2013-February-13, 08:33, said:

Codo, how do you stop in 4S when partner has a heart control but neither has real slam interest? How do you find slam when we have a minimum with a heart control and opener has a big hand without?

Like you and anybody else, I usually have found it out before I cuebid at the 4. level...
Of course if there are tricky auctions - maybe even with opponents bidding- or a quite late agreement of the trump suit, this might be difficult, but Andy did not mentioned such a problem.

[jdeegan]

Thank all of you for an excellent thread. I am an old-time player essentially out of the game for many years but now trying to learn how to use "last train". Fortunately, much of it seems intuitive. One question: on the auction 4♦, 4♥, 4♠, 5♣ I would intuitively think the 5♣ bid showed first round control + of course some kind of ♥ control. I guess if the opening lead is running up to my hand, a ♥ control could be as little as Kx.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I'm always reminded of a friend of mine and his pard who felt they weren't cue-bidding enough and had a pleasant auction with cuebids on the 4- and 5-level before bidding slam - - only to find out they were missing the top two trumps .

[Trinidad]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-February-15, 12:00, said:

I'm always reminded of a friend of mine and his pard who felt they weren't cue-bidding enough and had a pleasant auction with cuebids on the 4- and 5-level before bidding slam - - only to find out they were missing the top two trumps .

When I was a starting bridge player in University, I played a few times with a nice German math student who wasn't very experienced either. He suggested that we would play Jacoby 2NT. That was fine with me and I asked how we would follow up after that. He shrugged his shoulders and said: "Cuebidding, I guess...". (This meant first round controls first.) Then I asked what 3NT would mean in such a sequence. At first we couldn't come up with a meaning, but then I suggested: "How about if it shows a control in the trump suit?". That was a great idea and he followed up with: "But then we don't need Blackwood and 4NT shows a control in the trump suit too." We agreed immediately that this would not come up anyway.

However, on the 4th board of the evening, the auction went something like:
1♥-2NT
3♦-3♥ (cue-waiting)
3♠-3NT (cue-trump cue)
4♣-4♦ (cue - cue)
4♠-4NT (cue - trump cue)
7♥

We bid a grand on 25 HCP and a void in each hand. Somehow my partner made it (he shouldn't have). The rest of the score sheet only showed 4♥+2 and 4♥+1.

Rik

[jogs]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-February-15, 12:00, said:

I'm always reminded of a friend of mine and his pard who felt they weren't cue-bidding enough and had a pleasant auction with cuebids on the 4- and 5-level before bidding slam - - only to find out they were missing the top two trumps .

There's a lot of luck in this game. Too many people think
they can control everything. My thoughts is: if partner is
interested in slam and I'm interested in slam just bid it.
Maybe it makes and maybe it doesn't. When it doesn't, if
we haven't given too much info, maybe opponents will
misdefend.