[Fluffy]

who is saying that vugraph contains world class players only?

[han]

Bluecalm filtered the data to get tables where "elite pairs" were playing. So presumably at least one of the pairs at each table in the data set is world class.

I browsed through the hands and I knew all the names I saw.

[gwnn]

han, on 2013-February-07, 07:54, said:

I do think that you should look for 3NT, but you should do it slowly and you should allow for the possibility of partner becoming declarer.

How does this work in practice? I assume we bid 2♠ (natural, points/length) and take it from there, say if partner bids 2NT we raise to 3, otherwise give up on 3NT?

[phoenix214]

You can use 2♣ to bid with 5M332 and spread out values, this makes so that you don`t want to play opposite a 3 card fit anyway,(3nt has better chances of making) so it isn`t that bad, and you can use the transfer and 3NT route with 5422 hands as well

[han]

gwnn, on 2013-February-11, 10:33, said:

How does this work in practice? I assume we bid 2♠ (natural, points/length) and take it from there, say if partner bids 2NT we raise to 3, otherwise give up on 3NT?

I don't remember the hand exactly, but it was a strong 3523. I think I would bid 3H offering partner a choice of games, if I played that.

[Zelandakh]

phoenix214, on 2013-February-11, 00:57, said:

It is technicly possible to avoid such fits if you adjusst stayman a bit. 2D says "I dont have a 4 card major or I have any 4333". And with some 5332 you just bid stayman so you can play 3NT on bad fits

No need to adjust the initial responses to Stayman for this. There is a very old convention that was designed to achieve exactly this called SID (Stayman in Doubt). On its own SID is something of a waste for a bid but if you combine it with your strong raise call then you suddenly have a convention that is useful, worthwhile and will fit into the majority of NT structures.

[fromageGB]

I don't have a strong raise bid, what is that used for?

[Zelandakh]

For example, 1NT - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♥. Most pairs play this as a GF spade raise but you can bundle SID in with it. For hearts, most play the strong raise as a 2♠ rebid which gives ample space. I play transfers here instead and use 3♦ for the same thing - then the response structure is essentially identical to spades.

[han]

I have never heard of a pair using 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2S as a slam try in hearts, so I do not believe that most play this.

[cherdano]

Btw, I hope my post didn't imply that I disliked rhm's double-dummy simulation and Han's vugraph analysis. On the contrary, I always appreciate simulations and analysis that confirm what I already believe
However, if I had started with the assumption that 4M is usually better than 3N on these hands, I am not sure the experimental data would convince me to change my mind

[MickyB]

Rainer, I'd be interested to see what results your DD analysis gives for a 2NT opening, so, say, 20 points opposite 5. My instinct is that 5332 opposite 3(433) is much closer here due to potential communications issues in 3NT.

[aguahombre]

han, on 2013-February-13, 10:23, said:

I have never heard of a pair using 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2S as a slam try in hearts, so I do not believe that most play this.

I believe pairs who employ Reverse Fishbein and other conventions shown here might invert the meanings of 2♠ and 3♠ to save room.

[MickyB]

debrose, on 2013-February-08, 22:20, said:

Justin,
The solution you describe above didn't address how you handle the unbalanced 5-card spade hand when partner bids 3H instead of 3D. Presumably, you must bid 3S (either 5 spades unbalanced or artificial heart slam try?), so this system does have the drawback of wrong-siding spades sometimes.

2N:3C, 3S with 4-4 majors

2N:3C, 3H:3S puppets 3NT with precisely four spades or a good 4H bid

2N:3C, 3H:3N shows five spades, looking for three-card support


This is very similar to what I play in the context of 2N:3C showing 4+spades and 2N:3D showing 4+hearts.

[PhilKing]

Fluffy, on 2013-February-11, 06:31, said:

who is saying that vugraph contains world class players only?

Bad vugraph players?

[pigpenz]

JLOGIC, on 2013-February-06, 18:41, said:

Don't agree, 3N is almost always 5332, and the other times it is 5422 with some honors in the doubleton. With 5431 or 5-5 or 5422 with a weak doubleton partner would just bid his second suit.

In a previous thread I ran a dealmaster pro analysis where someone had a super accept of a transfer
showing 4333......3NT def plays better than 4 major even on 9 card major fit

[fromageGB]

Zelandakh, on 2013-February-13, 09:31, said:

For example, 1NT - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♥. Most pairs play this as a GF spade raise but you can bundle SID in with it. For hearts, most play the strong raise as a 2♠ rebid which gives ample space. I play transfers here instead and use 3♦ for the same thing - then the response structure is essentially identical to spades.

OK, thanks for that, but what I was getting at was what is opener supposed to show? I play at the moment that 1NT 2♣; 2♠ 3♥ is SID and nothing else. If it was also a "strong raise", would opener be bidding something like 3NT = 4333 shape, cue bid = other shape with slam-suitable hand, in case responder wants to go further than game? It is not something I have come across. I can see it could be very useful if you played that 1NT may include a 5 card major and/or a singleton!

[benlessard]

Had a MP hand today with a student.

Axx
KQx
Axx
KJxx

1Nt-2D
2H--2NT (inv)
??

Partner had a 3532 and even if both hands had no spot and we had great trumps, 3Nt was better than 4M in MP, so in Imps it wouldnt have been close at all.

What people do here with a (3334) bid an artificial 3m ?

[lalldonn]

benlessard, on 2013-February-13, 18:34, said:

Had a MP hand today with a student.

Axx
KQx
Axx
KJxx

1Nt-2D
2H--2NT (inv)
??

Partner had a 3532 and even if both hands had no spot and we had great trumps, 3Nt was better than 4M in MP, so in Imps it wouldnt have been close at all.

That's a different situation since (for most people?) responder might not be balanced for transfer then 2NT. It would be nice to have a bid that says "I want to play 3NT if you are balanced" there, but there are other concerns and you can't do it all.

[benlessard]

maybe something along the line of

3C im max with 3334 (3 in you M)
3D max with 3433 (4 in your M)
3H to play
3S Max with 5233
3Nt only 2H, or 3334 very no-trump oriented.

maybe 3m is leaking too much info but its not like 3m are useful bids in standard (especillay for player that rarely/never open 1Nt with 6m)

[han]

lalldonn, on 2013-February-13, 18:51, said:

It would be nice to have a bid that says "I want to play 3NT if you are balanced" there, but there are other concerns and you can't do it all.

I am not sure if you also play that 1NT - 2D - 2H - 2S and 1NT - 2C - 2X - 2S show the 5-card invites in hearts and spades respectively. If you play either of these, you can bid 3NT with a maximal 4333. With a maximum lacking 3-card support you bid 2NT (if partner has spades) or 3C (if partner has hearts).