[bftboy]

---

matchpoints. What does/should double mean here? What does/should 2nt mean? Arguing with pard over this one.

thanks in advance

[helene_t]

i think opener' s hand is sufficiently well-described for this double to be penalty

[PhilKing]

You need good agreements as to when double is not for take-out. Along with quite a few players here, I use the "double is takeout unless we have an agreement to the contrary" method.

This one comes under my list of penalty double situations: "We both bid, they protect." Had East, passed over 1♣ and then wandered in with 2♦, double would still have been for take-out, rightly or wrongly.

[mgoetze]

For me, 1NT denies 4 spades, thus a double here could not reasonably be takeout (if I have 4513 I'm just bidding 2♥), therefore it must be penalty. I'm not sure what the people for whom 1NT could still have 4 spades have to say about this one, you'll have to ask them.

As for 2NT, I cannot imagine any hand on which I would want to compete further but bypass the possiblity of playing 2♥ (well, unless I'm sure I want to play 3♣ perhaps), therefore the meaning of 2NT is "I've lost my mind, partner."

[mgoetze]

PhilKing, on 2013-January-22, 10:56, said:

You need good agreements as to when double is not for take-out. Along with quite a few players here, I use the "double is takeout unless we have an agreement to the contrary" method.

Been there, done that: http://www.bridgebas...enalty-doubles/

It didn't quite work, so I'm back to the more difficult to interpret, but also more comprehensive rule of "it's takeout unless it shouldn't be."

[PhilKing]

mgoetze, on 2013-January-22, 12:01, said:

As for 2NT, I cannot imagine any hand on which I would want to compete further but bypass the possiblity of playing 2♥, therefore the meaning of 2NT is "I've lost my mind, partner."

♠Jx ♥ ATxx ♦xx ♣ATxxx

Wibble.

[JLOGIC]

X is penalty, under the rule "Xs of retarded bids are penalty."

[mgoetze]

PhilKing, on 2013-January-22, 12:09, said:

♠Jx ♥ ATxx ♦xx ♣ATxxx

Yeah I edited my post but apparently not quickly enough... anyhow you're surely not bidding 2NT.

[wyman]

JLOGIC, on 2013-January-22, 12:26, said:

X is penalty, under the rule "Xs of retarded bids are penalty."

DOSBAP

I would love to see a DOSBAP case go to committee.

"What are your agreements about doubles in this situation?"
"Doubles of stupid bids are penalty."

[PhilKing]

mgoetze, on 2013-January-22, 12:44, said:

Yeah I edited my post but apparently not quickly enough... anyhow you're surely not bidding 2NT.

Why not? It's natural with 4 or 5 clubs. Partner can pass or bid 3♣ appropriately.

[bftboy]

Thx for great replies. I agree, dbl must be penalty, showing a hand more or less like the one given. what would a 2nt call look like? you could be on 23-24 hcp if you held something like K10xx KQ98 xx QJx (assume unfavorable and that pard opens 1♣in 1st seat). What else can you do?

[JLOGIC]

Double them for penalty? Lefty is a clown he could not open 1D or 2D or 3D. Then as a passed hand he could not overcall 2D. Now he has balanced 2D r/w on a non fit auction. I am fine doubling him, the likelihood of partner having only 2 diamonds is extremely small, he'd have to be 3325, and if he has that shape and didn't pass 1H he probably has 13-14 anyways. More likely he has 3-4 diamonds and we have 22-24 HCP. That is fine for doubling them red at MP.

Sometimes you will come out with egg on your face but MP is like that sometimes. LHO has announced he has a shitty hand and then bid. We know we have significant values and they don't have a huge diamond fit, and our diamonds are behind LHO. They have contracted for 8 tricks. I am fine taking a proposition where if they make it I get a zero and if they don't I get a top in those circumstances. Competing to 2N is just criminal.

[Fluffy]

if opener has denied 4 diamonds I don't think his double shoulde penalty now, looks like 3325 maximum or 4324 if its allowed. Responder is another story.