[dustinst22]

Whats the best way to show support in a minor with a big hand in this type of auction?



AQxx KQx AKxx xx

Partner opens.

1D - 1S ; 2D ?.

[Cyberyeti]

Well you could allow 4 card majors in your inverted minors, but that's a lot easier if you either play 4 card minors or play your inverted minors GF.

[dustinst22]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-18, 17:18, said:

Well you could allow 4 card majors in your inverted minors, but that's a lot easier if you either play 4 card minors or play your inverted minors GF.

Its an interesting suggestion, but I think it might open up a new set of problems. For example, how do you now show/find stoppers in the majors for 3N?

[Phil]

2♥ is the standard solution. 4♦ is also possible.

A few non-standard:

1. Include 4cM's in your inverted minors.

2. Play 3♦ here as a one round force.

3. Start with a Rexfordesque 2!c.

[Phil]

 dustinst22, on 2013-January-18, 17:30, said:

Its an interesting suggestion, but I think it might open up a new set of problems. For example, how do you now show/find stoppers in the majors for 3N?

You essentially treat 2♦ as a 2/1 but it gets kind of awkward for opener to start bidding 2N with open suits. A sensible switch might be to play 2♦ as a balanced hand and 2N to show hearts.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Phil, on 2013-January-18, 17:34, said:

2♥ is the standard solution.

I don't know if it is standard but it is certainly an option .

2H! = cheapest new bid suit forcing ( replies analogous to NMF over 1NT rebid ) and may be artificial.
But what if Opener has 4 cards ♥ and you don't ( as here ) ?

1D - 2S
2D - 2H!
3H - ?? now what ??

[pigpenz]

At one time Bridge World Standard (80's) was that by bidding 3 ♦ was forcing after rebid by partner, what i cant tell by your post is the 2♦ a rebid by partner or just a question of what you could have bid?

If its a rebid 4♦ could be some form of KCB

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 pigpenz, on 2013-January-19, 10:16, said:

At one time Bridge World Standard (80's) was that by bidding 3 ♦ was forcing after rebid by partner, what i cant tell by your post is the 2♦ a rebid by partner or just a question of what you could have bid?

If its a rebid 4♦ could be some form of KCB

Looking at my file notes, I found this same problem from a different Message board about 8 years ago.

It was suggested for the Diam case :
1D - 1S
2D - 3D = GF with only 4 cards ♠ and concern about ♣ .
Note that Responder can't have 4 cards ♥ either because with 4-4 he would have bid 1H first .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Likewise for:
1D - 1H
2D - 3D = GF with only 4 cards ♥ and concern about ♣ .
If Responder also had 4 cards ♠, he would have reversed into 2S .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Club case doesn't have a rebid "space" problem :
1C - 1M
2C - 2D! ( cheapest bid new suit forcing analogous to NMF over a 1NT rebid )

[JLOGIC]

I don't understand the suggestion for 4D, that is not a forcing bid in my world. I guess if you have no way to force it is, but personally I would bid 4D on many 5143 invites or whatever that have no interest in playing 3N and want to strongly encourage partner to bid especially with prime cards. There is a big difference between inviting with 3D and inviting with 4D.

Anyways, just play 2oM as artificial and game forcing in an auction like this. Next raise to 3D. Have an intelligent controlled auction from there.

[dustinst22]

 JLOGIC, on 2013-January-19, 12:43, said:

I don't understand the suggestion for 4D, that is not a forcing bid in my world. I guess if you have no way to force it is, but personally I would bid 4D on many 5143 invites or whatever that have no interest in playing 3N and want to strongly encourage partner to bid especially with prime cards. There is a big difference between inviting with 3D and inviting with 4D.

Anyways, just play 2oM as artificial and game forcing in an auction like this. Next raise to 3D. Have an intelligent controlled auction from there.

Sounds good. Does this cause any issues when responder has invitational values with 5-5 or 5-4 in the majors? I guess not as you can just clarify on your rebid.

[JLOGIC]

Yes it does. Standard is probably that 2H can be an invitational hand (though I think this is changing, or has changed in the expert US player world). If you play it as invitational + you create new issues, like opener has to jump around with 3 spades and a good hand (which is not great since you might not have 5 spades, like this hand), with 4 hearts and a max what does he do (he can't bid 4H since you might not actually have hearts, but 3H could just be a min so what do you do with 4 hearts and just an invite over 3H?), a max without a fit in the major (because presumably 3D would be NF).

It is really a mess to play it as invitational plus, you can work around it but its not worth it imo. In general, when responder has to make some temporizing bid that doesn't show a suit just to set up a force, you need to be able to bid after that without jumping around, you have lost too much time and space already. Imagine fourth suit forcing auctions not being a GF if it was already at the 2M level, that would also be a disaster especially for slam bidding (though it was also standard for a long time).

I would suggest just bidding 2N with 5-4 in the majors invite. If partner has a max with 4 hearts or 3 spades he will bid 3M. If he has a minimum, you'll play 2N or 3D instead of your major suit fit, and you might have missed a game, but that's what you give up to make 2H forcing. You might also play that 3H over 2D would be a 5-5 invite.

Alternatively, start playing reverse flannery responses to 1m so that 5-4 and 5-5 invites are impossible and you don't need to worry about this.

[Cyberyeti]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-January-19, 09:13, said:

I don't know if it is standard but it is certainly an option .

2H! = cheapest new bid suit forcing ( replies analogous to NMF over 1NT rebid ) and may be artificial.
But what if Opener has 4 cards ♥ and you don't ( as here ) ?

1D - 2S
2D - 2H!
3H - ?? now what ??

We play 3♥ as good heart hand in context of a 2♦ rebid, 2N shows hearts and less than that.

[lowerline]

 JLOGIC, on 2013-January-19, 12:55, said:

Yes it does. Standard is probably that 2H can be an invitational hand (though I think this is changing, or has changed in the expert US player world). If you play it as invitational + you create new issues, like opener has to jump around with 3 spades and a good hand (which is not great since you might not have 5 spades, like this hand), with 4 hearts and a max what does he do (he can't bid 4H since you might not actually have hearts, but 3H could just be a min so what do you do with 4 hearts and just an invite over 3H?), a max without a fit in the major (because presumably 3D would be NF).

It is really a mess to play it as invitational plus, you can work around it but its not worth it imo. In general, when responder has to make some temporizing bid that doesn't show a suit just to set up a force, you need to be able to bid after that without jumping around, you have lost too much time and space already. Imagine fourth suit forcing auctions not being a GF if it was already at the 2M level, that would also be a disaster especially for slam bidding (though it was also standard for a long time).

I would suggest just bidding 2N with 5-4 in the majors invite. If partner has a max with 4 hearts or 3 spades he will bid 3M. If he has a minimum, you'll play 2N or 3D instead of your major suit fit, and you might have missed a game, but that's what you give up to make 2H forcing. You might also play that 3H over 2D would be a 5-5 invite.

Alternatively, start playing reverse flannery responses to 1m so that 5-4 and 5-5 invites are impossible and you don't need to worry about this.

This is what I play:

1♦ - 1♠

2♦ - 2♥ (inv+ relay)

Then:
2♠ = 4crd ♥ (2nt or 3♦ next can be passed)
2nt = 6♦ max GF
3♣ = 6♦4♣ (3♦ next can be passed)
3♦ = 6♦ min NF
3♥ = 4♥6♦ GF
3♠ = 3♠6♦ GF

The issue with the invitational major 2suiter remains of course. But you have already given the solution for those.

Steven

[Zelandakh]

If you are going to mess around with INV+ relays, it is much simpler to do it on the first round. So

1♦
==
1♥ = INV+ relay
1♠ = weak with 4+ spades
1NT = weak with 4+ hearts
2♣ = weak with 5+ clubs
2♦ = weak raise


After 1♦ - 1♥, Opener usually bids 1♠ with a minimum and 2♣ or more with a maximum (you spin some hands out into 1NT of course). After 1♦ - 1♥; 1♠, 1NT is a game-forcing relay and other bids are natural and invitational. You get a nicely controlled auction this way without having to bolt on extras in the later bidding rounds.

[Fluffy]

I would always take 4♦ as a slam try.

I would bid 2♥ and then 3♦ as a forcing raise, specially playing MPs,