[rbforster]

straube, on 2013-January-18, 22:26, said:

I think people are trying not to result but it's difficult and some aren't succeeding. I think that 1D (0-7) is great for part score bidding but lousy for slam, especially in contested auctions. I'll list some of my opinions on various auctions...

7) Not sure what RobF's auction is. If it's 1C-1D(1S), dbl-3C, 3S-4C I think he gets to slam like others who start this way. If it's 1C-1D(1S), dbl-1N I think he gets to 3N.

given the conditions, I get to 5♣. I didn't really see the slam potential as opener of certain responding hands like the actual one. I was just throwing out 1N vs 3♣ as an idea, I don't have strong agreements there.

[straube]

I posted outcomes. They can be changed if you disagree.

My thought is that I want to post the outcome given by each system practitioner. In some cases I've received more than one auction and outcome so I did what I thought was best. For example...

relknes lists possible responder rebids as 1N, 2C, 2S, and 3C and is not sure if he gets to 5C or 6C. I don't personally understand 2S because it seems to create a force. I think he's stuck between a 2C underbid and a 3C overbid. So if he bids 3C (one of his two preferred choices) he gets to 6C. If he bids 2C, I think 5C.

The Polish club auction is very difficult because a 3C jump is precluded. Antonylee is uncertain about his outcome and after an initial 1N rebid, I think he only gets to 5C. If he feels differently, I'll post 6C and put a question mark showing someone (me) has questioned the outcome.

I've also put a question mark by Zelandakh's outcome. He's been clear in what his auction would be and in his defense of it. Sometimes our system forces guesses on us that turn out to be right. I put a question mark by it because I think his auction could take other routes and without knowing about the CJ, 5C may be the safer spot.

I also put question marks by Free's and RobF's auctions because they have essentially the same auction as Justin and me and their personal judgment differs. I want to take personal bidding judgment out of this thread as much as possible, so while I list 5C as their final spot, I post 6C in question marks as alternate contracts.

[JLOGIC]

It's very hard/impossible to seperate judgement and system, especially in a competitive auction. But FWIW maybe our systems gave us an easier time due to kickback. It is always possible to cuebid your way to slam without keycard but it is usually harder.

[Free]

straube, on 2013-January-18, 22:26, said:

1) Free's auction starts the same as Justin's and mine but he bids a conservative 5C holding most of the same information. He doesn't have 4D as RKC available, but still, I think he gets to 6C anyway after 1C-1D (1S), dbl-3C, 3S-4C.

We don't have Kickback RKC available, but we do have Kickback Turbo available. Opener will bid 4♥ showing an odd number of keycards. North has the ♣Q so doesn't have a problem bidding 6♣. This is however an interesting hand: when North wouldn't have ♣Q, he needs a cuebid to find out if opener has ♣Q. Here however he doesn't have a cuebid available (4NT = cuebid ♦). We do play 4NT as some sort of LTTC in some situations (if South would've bid 4♠ for example, skipping the ♥s).

I share awm's thoughts. Both hands were given way too fast imo. It's a matter of evaluation, and I found it interesting that I'm pessimistic while Justin was optimistic (or just right in evaluating the hand) with basically exactly the same information. I wanted to see more hand evaluation, but once all the hands are shown it's easy to be optimistic. I'm sure that I would've bid the slam with both hands visible because I found it borderline. And I'm also quite sure fewer people would bid slam if East was given a 5=3=1=4 with ♣A.

My suggestion: don't change the rules in the middle of the game. If you start a 1-hand problem, wait until everyone has bid the hands. It requires much more effort because we sometimes have different auctions and need to wait until the OP responds to certain questions, but that's what it takes when you post a 1-hand problem.

[straube]

Free, on 2013-January-19, 14:02, said:

We don't have Kickback RKC available, but we do have Kickback Turbo available. Opener will bid 4♥ showing an odd number of keycards. North has the ♣Q so doesn't have a problem bidding 6♣. This is however an interesting hand: when North wouldn't have ♣Q, he needs a cuebid to find out if opener has ♣Q. Here however he doesn't have a cuebid available (4NT = cuebid ♦). We do play 4NT as some sort of LTTC in some situations (if South would've bid 4♠ for example, skipping the ♥s).

I share awm's thoughts. Both hands were given way too fast imo. It's a matter of evaluation, and I found it interesting that I'm pessimistic while Justin was optimistic (or just right in evaluating the hand) with basically exactly the same information. I wanted to see more hand evaluation, but once all the hands are shown it's easy to be optimistic. I'm sure that I would've bid the slam with both hands visible because I found it borderline. And I'm also quite sure fewer people would bid slam if East was given a 5=3=1=4 with ♣A.

My suggestion: don't change the rules in the middle of the game. If you start a 1-hand problem, wait until everyone has bid the hands. It requires much more effort because we sometimes have different auctions and need to wait until the OP responds to certain questions, but that's what it takes when you post a 1-hand problem.

I gave folks some time before posting both hands, but both hands are needed since the auction can take several rebids. I did argue that you had the same information as Justin and the only difference I see is that he had RKC 4D available. That's why I posted 5C for you with 6C? as a possible outcome. I did the same for RobF who also has this information and not RKC. I'll certainly switch your outcome to 6C if you feel you would have reached this.

[antonylee]

I agree with your assessment that the Polish club auction is not very comfortable but I think there is still some chance to reach 6♣ after responder shows some (limited) slam interest by bidding 4♣ instead of 5. The question is whether this can still come from a hand like Qxx Ax xx xxxxxx or does that necessarily imply two working cards. Not really clear to me but opposite two working cards slam is fine so...

[straube]

antonylee, on 2013-January-20, 00:06, said:

I agree with your assessment that the Polish club auction is not very comfortable but I think there is still some chance to reach 6♣ after responder shows some (limited) slam interest by bidding 4♣ instead of 5. The question is whether this can still come from a hand like Qxx Ax xx xxxxxx or does that necessarily imply two working cards. Not really clear to me but opposite two working cards slam is fine so...

Just let me know what you think is best. When I (or anyone) challenge something, it's for the improvement of this exercise. You know your system best and have the last word on the final auction and outcome. The most I will do is question mark something that I or others feel is doubtful. What's your final auction? Btw, thanks for participating. I feel like Polish is at a disadvantage since we're looking at strong hands and everyone else's responder knows this immediately, but it's nice to see how it handles these hands.

[Free]

straube, on 2013-January-19, 14:23, said:

I'll certainly switch your outcome to 6C if you feel you would have reached this.

That's not necessary. I was just expressing my disappointment that there's not so much discussion about how much the South hand is worth and at the same time giving you the auction if I would be playing my system with Justin as South.

[Free]

Oh, and most important: you forgot the beer card!

[antonylee]

straube, on 2013-January-20, 00:58, said:

Just let me know what you think is best. When I (or anyone) challenge something, it's for the improvement of this exercise. You know your system best and have the last word on the final auction and outcome. The most I will do is question mark something that I or others feel is doubtful. What's your final auction? Btw, thanks for participating. I feel like Polish is at a disadvantage since we're looking at strong hands and everyone else's responder knows this immediately, but it's nice to see how it handles these hands.

I think my auction will be 1♣-1♦ (1♠); X-1N; 2♦-3♣; 3♠-4♣; ??? (for the reasons I explained above) and now I think the honest answer is that I will take my plus in 5♣ most of the time but may bid 6 depending on my mood/table feel/state of the match... so 5♣ (6♣?) looks honest to me.

[Zelandakh]

Adam, if you are going to make accusations then at least read the fricking auction and thread first!

awm, on 2013-January-18, 20:54, said:

Zelandakh's auction has responder making a general force instead of trying 3nt

I have mentioned 3NT as a possible alternative for North. Why is it you think ♠T9xx is a good enough stopper for me but not good enough for straube, or Justin, or anyone else for that matter? I stand by what I said before, that adding the ♠J makes it an obvious 3NT (even though 6♣ still makes) but without it asking is better. Since everyone else is asking I am not sure why you find this controvercial, except...

awm, on 2013-January-18, 20:54, said:

or a stopper ask

Sorry, but after 3♦ I have stated that the system has 3♠ as a natural bid. Just how do you expect me to ask for a stopper if not with 3♥? For what it is worth, it is obvious to me that 3♥ asks for spade help on this auction but if I said that explicitly it would suggest a level of system detail which is not there. I agree completely that this is not optimal and one of 3♥ or 3♠ should show clubs, but I am not going to invent system on the fly.

awm, on 2013-January-18, 20:54, said:

or raising the suit opener bid twice,

Opener did not bid diamonds twice. 3♦ showed diamonds; 2♦ did not.

awm, on 2013-January-18, 20:54, said:

and then opener introduces a three-card suit at the four-level

What else? Do you think a singleton ace is worth bidding 3NT in a hand that can still have 3 spades? I agree that a club suit of ♣xxx should not be introduced but I fail to see any alternative on the given hand. It is not that South thinks "if partner had 5 clubs we will have a slam" so much as a simple expedient of describing the hand to choose which minor is going to be best given that 3NT appears to be out. Note that it is highly likely that North has clubs on this auction since there was never an opportunity to show them. If not then they will surely have some kind of diamond support. Otherwise why were they bidding 3♥ in the first place?

awm, on 2013-January-18, 20:54, said:

and of course responder has a cheap keycard bid in opener's three-card suit available!

This is just a cheap shot Adam. Given that
a) North did not bid a natural 3♠;
b) North failed to support diamonds...twice;
c) North has previously denied 4 hearts; and
d) There are almost no cue bids above 4 of the trump suit in the system,

what exactly do you think 4♥ might mean? I can see 2 possibilities: either it is a slam try agreeing clubs or it is RKCB for clubs. On this hand, either meaning would reach 6♣. More to the point, the system meta-rules tell me that the RKCB meaning is correct. More interesting for me was the meaning of 4♠ and 4NT instead of 4♥. These can hardly be natural for the same reasons as above. I think one of these (4NT) should be a Last Train slam try for clubs and am simply not sure about 4♠. If partner bid 4♠ I would probably try 4NT on almost any hand and hope to guess what they were up to next round. More to the point, I would simply not make these bids without stronger agreements. So tell me, if you think 4♥ as RKCB is unreasonable, what exactly do you think it should be?

Sorry Adam, but I think your criticisms here are total bullshit and I do not mind calling you on it. Straube at least read the auction and has valid concerns. I have freely admitted that there are plenty of variations on the hands where I will end up in the wrong contract. As far as I can see, this is true for everyone. It is a tough hand. But at least try to consider the system in place before typing rubbish. Thanks.

[nige1]

straube, on 2013-January-17, 14:13, said:

#08. South is dealer. Vul vs vul. Imps. If RHO can overcall 1S, he will...unless North shows spades.

Jasmine Club might reach 3N but on a good day ...
North ♠ T963 ♥ A6 ♦ T3 ♣ QT974: __ 1♦ 3♣ 4♥ 5♦
East ..........................: __(1♠)
South ♠ A ♥ K973 ♦ AKQJ2 ♣ KJ2: 1♣ _X 4♣ 4N 6♣

• 1♣ = Art 16+.
• 1♦ = Art 0-7.
• _X = T/O.
• 3♣ = Nat, 5-7, 5+ cards.
• 4♣ = Nat Key-ask?
• 4♥ = Art 1/4 keys.
  
• 4N = ♣Q-ask?
• 5♦ = ♣Q but nothing else.
• 6♣ = Nat.

Marks, IMO: 6♣ = 10, 5♣ = 7. 3N = 5. 5♦ = 4. 6♦ = 3. Partscores = 2.

[straube]

Zelandakh, I also mistook 2D as showing diamonds rather than (if I understand) an unspecified minor suit. Anyway your auction makes a bit more sense to me after thinking about it. I'm still inclined to think you get to 5C because of the lack of knowledge about the CJ but opener could have this card or the CJ could be finessed so I see how 6C is possible.

Please (to both Zelandakh and awm) let's not fight further. awm hasn't replied yet. It's his choice whether to do so, but I'd rather not start a back and forth here. I understand Zelandakh's reply and I also did ask Adam to comment on the auctions that he thought were doubtful. I think some of this doubt came from (our both) mistaking 2D as showing diamonds.

Both of you are among my favorite posters. I'm not referencing this past deal now, but in terms of looking at future deals, we all need to be careful with each other's feelings but also feel freedom to question, criticize, offer improvements etc. This isn't a bidding contest. It's an opportunity to compare a variety of systems on the same deals and we have to try to help each other be as objective as possible.

Really, I hope no more needs to be said, but if so, I'll stay out. Thanks to both of you for participating in this.

[the_clown]

1♣-1♦- (1♠)
X -3♣
4♣-4♥ (natural Slam try, cuebid)
6♣

[Mbodell]

well at the table we got to 3nt N but through discussion we decided with proper system evaluation/usage 6♣S seems likely with tosr based system.

table auction:

1♣-1♦-(1♠) : art forcing 16+ unbal, 18+ bal; art neg, 0-7 or occ 8+ with <2 controls
X-3♣ : take out; max in context with 5+ clubs
3♠-3nt : strong raise and/or look for spade stopper help for nt; have at least a partial spade stop
P : and worried about less useful spade honors and then not enough for slam and even some risk of game pass

better auction:
1♣-1♦-(1♠) : art forcing 16+ unbal, 18+ bal; art neg, 0-7 or occ 8+ with <2 controls
X-3♣ : take out; max in context with 5+ clubs
4♦-4♥ : agree ♣, keycard; 1 (or 4) kc
4♠-5♠ : Q ask; have the Q, have no outside K
6♣ : to play

[qplus10]

1♣1♦(1♠)
3♦(not forcing or setting ♦ this time)3nt.


It really likes 3nt on every hand :-).

[jack502]

1♣1♥(1♠)
3nt.




1♥= semi positive bal or 4441 or unbal no 5 card major.

[benlessard]

Comedy Club

1D--1S (nat---5S nf)
3H--5C (1453 SJS--soff)

From north POV slam is so far away.

[FM75]

OCP

1♣ - 1♦ (1♠)
X - 2♣
2♦ - 3N strong hand - (lebensohl, no spade stop)

Hoping that p has just enough.

[Lord Molyb]

Molybdenum Forcing Pass system:
S ---- N
P --- 1♣ (1♠) (opening or better, 0-bad 12)
dbl --- 2♣ (4 hearts and still unlimited, best suit)
2♠ --- 3♠ (18+ with club support, enough to bid 3nt but no spade stopper)
4NT --- 5♣ (1 key card)
P (5NT isn't safe)