[straube]

 hrothgar, on 2013-January-18, 08:15, said:

I'm going to insert the MOSCITO auction in a minute. Before I do so, I want to advance a new and potentially controversial idea.

After the auction 1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (1♠), use opener's pass as if it were the normal 1♠ relay.

Use a direct seat double to suggest penalty and a 1NT overcall for takeout double hands.
(This is slightly different than I suggested the other day)

All and all, I think that it should work a bit better.

With this hand, opener will chose to pass (starting the relay) and we'll have a simple relay to 6♣

I've been working that problem, too. But what then to do with a strong NT?

I've thought....
.....P-spades or strong NT, invites dbl with xx or 1N with shortness
.....dbl-relay ask, responder may pass with spades
.....1N-takeout

[straube]

deleted

[Zelandakh]

 straube, on 2013-January-18, 08:42, said:

Let us help you be objective. How does your auction proceed and where are the forks in the road where you need help?

Hehe, well up to 3♦ is certain and I would expect this start every time. North cannot bid an immediate 3♣ here as that is required as a negative (pass/correct). After 3♦ North has to decide whether their spade holding is good enough for 3NT, or whether they should try to get extra information with a 3♥ bid. 3♠ instead would be natural. If North bids 3NT then South will pass. Over 3♥, South's duty is to describe their hand naturally, so 4♣ is the only reasonable bid and I think this leads to slam.

The key decision with the North hand is close. With ♠JTxx and slam seemingly bad, I think 3NT is going to be bid almost every time. With ♠T9xx it is trickier. In essence, this is a not dissimilar decision to the one in the 16+ auctions. Is the spade stop or the club suit the more important feature? In the end, I am woking on the basis that if partner does not have ♠Hx or ♠xxx, then a minor may well be as good as 3NT. And if partner does have such a spade holding then 3NT is still available. Similarly if partner has 3 good clubs. The problem case is when partner has none of these. Then we are basically committed to 5♦. That is a definite risk here. The more I think through it, the more convinced I am that this risk is justified. But at the table I tend to be a lot more fond of 3NT...

[straube]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-January-18, 09:04, said:

Hehe, well up to 3♦ is certain and I would expect this start every time. North cannot bid an immediate 3♣ here as that is required as a negative (pass/correct). After 3♦ North has to decide whether their spade holding is good enough for 3NT, or whether they should try to get extra information with a 3♥ bid. 3♠ instead would be natural. If North bids 3NT then South will pass. Over 3♥, South's duty is to describe their hand naturally, so 4♣ is the only reasonable bid and I think this leads to slam.

The key decision with the North hand is close. With ♠JTxx and slam seemingly bad, I think 3NT is going to be bid almost every time. With ♠T9xx it is trickier. In essence, this is a not dissimilar decision to the one in the 16+ auctions. Is the spade stop or the club suit the more important feature? In the end, I am woking on the basis that if partner does not have ♠Hx or ♠xxx, then a minor may well be as good as 3NT. And if partner does have such a spade holding then 3NT is still available. Similarly if partner has 3 good clubs. The problem case is when partner has none of these. Then we are basically committed to 5♦. That is a definite risk here. The more I think through it, the more convinced I am that this risk is justified. But at the table I tend to be a lot more fond of 3NT...

I still think you don't reach slam. North has an awful time not knowing that South has the CJ and that there are 5 likely running diamonds in South's hand. My vote is no and at best you reach 5C. It's fine if we disagree, but let's get input from others.

[hrothgar]

 straube, on 2013-January-18, 08:40, said:

I've been working that problem, too. But what then to do with a strong NT?

You relay with a strong NT, intending to break relay the next round

[Zelandakh]

 straube, on 2013-January-18, 09:17, said:

I still think you don't reach slam. North has an awful time not knowing that South has the CJ and that there are 5 likely running diamonds in South's hand. My vote is no and at best you reach 5C. It's fine if we disagree, but let's get input from others.

I think you should try to construct hands for South that qualify for an Acol 2, so 8 playing tricks or 21+hcp. One example that does not contain the cards you suggest might be A/KQJx/AKJ9x/K8x and even here slam is not too bad. About the worst possibility (with 3 key cards) would be A/KQJ/AQJxxx/K8x. That's not the best slam for sure but still not hopeless; and most hands will fit better than this. Maybe I have a blind spot here but the North hand just looks really good to me once South shows 3 clubs!

[straube]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-January-18, 09:54, said:

I think you should try to construct hands for South that qualify for an Acol 2, so 8 playing tricks or 21+hcp. One example that does not contain the cards you suggest might be A/KQJx/AKJ9x/K8x and even here slam is not too bad. About the worst possibility (with 3 key cards) would be A/KQJ/AQJxxx/K8x. That's not the best slam for sure but still not hopeless; and most hands will fit better than this. Maybe I have a blind spot here but the North hand just looks really good to me once South shows 3 clubs!

I've never played Acol 2s so you have a better perspective. I think we both agree that you have some difficult choices, but I understand why you think you get to 6C. If others are able to change your mind...

Btw, to everyone, please make sure you post a final bidding sequence. I don't want to interpret for anyone and will leave out outcomes that are not complete. Probably will post outcomes tomorrow.

[Free]

 hrothgar, on 2013-January-18, 08:15, said:

I'm going to insert the MOSCITO auction in a minute. Before I do so, I want to advance a new and potentially controversial idea.

After the auction 1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (1♠), use opener's pass as if it were the normal 1♠ relay.

Use a direct seat double to suggest penalty and a 1NT overcall for takeout double hands.
(This is slightly different than I suggested the other day)

All and all, I think that it should work a bit better.

With this hand, opener will chose to pass (starting the relay) and we'll have a simple relay to 6♣

I think opener should be able to bid a natural 1NT somehow. Therefore I'd use pass as 2-way (penalty or something natural) obligating partner to Dbl, Dbl as the relay (staying at equal level), and 1NT as takeout. You can also swap the immediate 1NT with a delayed 1NT, not sure what's best, I haven't thought this through.

[straube]

 Free, on 2013-January-18, 10:53, said:

I think opener should be able to bid a natural 1NT somehow. Therefore I'd use pass as 2-way (penalty or something natural) obligating partner to Dbl, Dbl as the relay (staying at equal level), and 1NT as takeout. You can also swap the immediate 1NT with a delayed 1NT, not sure what's best, I haven't thought this through.

If you pass with spades or a balanced NT, you get to NT from responder's side when he is short. If responder doubles back in (cooperatively for penalty), opener rebids 1N with the balanced hand.

I think the only downside here is making the takeout call 1N. It has several obvious disadvantages. It might be improved if 1N as takeout is nf.

One concern for trying to keep relays is that if LHO raises 2S, relays are probably broken.

[Free]

 straube, on 2013-January-18, 11:02, said:

If you pass with spades or a balanced NT, you get to NT from responder's side when he is short. If responder doubles back in (cooperatively for penalty), opener rebids 1N with the balanced hand.

I don't give responder the option, he's obligated to Dbl (some sort of puppet to Dbl).

[relknes]

 straube, on 2013-January-17, 14:13, said:

South is dealer. Vul vs vul. Imps. If RHO can overcall 1S, he will...unless North shows spades.

................T963
................A6
................T3
................QT974
?.....................................?
?.....................................?
?.....................................?
?.....................................?
................A
................K973
................AKQJ2
................KJ2

Not sure if everyone agrees that North should rebid 3C after 1C P 1D (1S) dbl P but I think it's likely. IMPrecision will have an uncontested relay auction. Moscito and SCREAM will have an 1H semipositive. I'll give the full deal later. Now that you see both hands, please post your full auction.

As far as rebidding 3♣, this one is close. I would normally want a better suit, a longer suit, or another point or two. The thing that makes it possible is that the other rebids available to the system are not too attractive either. After 1♣ - 1♦ - (1♠) - X, responder has to choose between the following distortions:

1N = 6-8 points, spades stopped for NT (I don't like lying about the spade stopper here)
2♣ = 0-5 points, prefers clubs to either red suit (This bid is the worst of the options, in my opinion)
2♠ = 6-8 points, spades not stopped, no biddable suit (This is less attractive because of the two red-suit doubletons, since partner will be counting on support)
3♣ = 6-8 points, good 5 card suit or any 6+ suit (this hand is pushing the definition of good)

Really, only the last two are contenders, in my opinion, so I will give two auctions, depending which road North picks.

Auction 1:
1♣ - 1♦ - (1♠)
X - 2♠
3♦ - 3♠
4♥ - 4♠
6♦

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 0-8, E: overcall
S: takeout double, N: 6-8 points, no spade stopper, no biddable suit
S: setting ♦ as trump, N: "I have first or second round control of hearts, do you have first or second round control of spades?"
S: "Yes, and I have two of the top 3 trump and first or second round control of clubs, do you have first round control of hearts?", N: "Yes, do you have first round control of spades?"
S: "That A of hearts was all I needed to know. Lets play 6♦"

Auction 2:
1♣ - 1♦ - (1♠)
X - 3♣
3♦ - 3♠
4♣ - 4♦
4N - 5♣
6♣

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 0-8, E: overcall
S: takeout double, N: 6-8 points, 5 good clubs or 6+ clubs
S: 20+ points or 0-3 losers, 5+, N: no spade stopper
S: setting ♣ as trump, N: "Do you have 1st or 2nd round control of diamonds?"
S: "Yes, and 1st or second round control of both majors, but do you have two of the top 3 trump?", N: "No."
S: to play

South has no qualms about going to slam, it is hard to picture a hand that would have bid 3♣, dosn't have spades stopped, has no points in diamonds, and can't produce two of ♣A, ♣Q, ♥A, and ♥Q.

Funny, in a way, that ours is the only system that might end up in 6♦

[straube]

I like your agreements for how trump is set. Particularly...

1C-1D (1S)
dbl-2S
3D

If pd doesn't have a preference, let opener name trump and be done with it.
This will lose sometimes, but it saves a round of bidding for cue bidding.

[JLOGIC]

I don't really get the fascination with bidding NT on T9xx after a t/o X. We are catering to Jx or Qx, and 5C not making. It is a narrow target, maybe a little different for me since I have a natural 2N opener so if my partner has one of those holdings he has 21+?

To me 4225 with no spade honors is a great hand for either slam or a club game opposite short spades and some club length. I don't want to play 3N opposite a stiff or 2 small. I would bid 3C with a full spade stopper or 2 if I had 5 or 6 clubs, that kind of hand wants to play clubs if we play in a partscore, not NT.

[relknes]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-January-18, 08:17, said:

I suspect that is a feature of this hand, that a small change might lead to 3NT on the one hand or 6m on the other. In other words, I am not sure this is a good hand for DD bidding because it is very difficult to be completely objective knowing that the slam is good, as hard as we all try to be. As an example of how close this probably is, almost every auction so far looks like it will finish in 3NT if we change North's ♠3 to the ♠J. Or have I misread that?

If the ♠3 were the ♠J, then a 1N response to the double would be in order (for our system anyways).

1♣ - 1♦ -(1♠)
X - 1N
2♦ - 2N
4♣ - 4♥
6♦

Translation:
S: 16+, N: 0-8, E: overcall
S: takeout double, N: 6-8 points, spades stopped for NT
S: 20+ points or 0-3 losers, 5+, N: balanced hand, stoppers in clubs and hearts
S: Gerber, N: 1 ace
S: to play

[antonylee]

I think Polish club (WJ05) has the same problem as described by relknes, but it is even worse because 1♦ also has to cover (8)9-11 hands with a bad minor or both bad minors, so jumping to 3♣ over the double is really overstating the strength. My agreements are not very firm here but I also think 2♠ would tend to indicate both minors. And after 2♣ it will be fairly awkward for responder to convince partner that he doesn't have a 4225 yarborough, so I'm kind of stuck with 1N here. But perhaps better Polish clubbers can give their opinion?
In which case the auction would start 1♣-1♦ (1♠); X-1N; 2♦-3♣; 3♠-4♣ (want to play 3NT? - not really, and arguably sets trumps) (at least now responder doesn't have to overstate his stopper) but now it's too late for opener to agree clubs and keycard (well probably it makes sense to play 4N=keycard 3014 here... but this kind of switch (from 1430) is disaster-prone). Now I'm "definitely kind of" resulting here but if responder had a hand unsuitable for slam he could directly jump to 5♣ over 3♠, so I guess 4♣ should show some slam interest and opener can jump to 6♣. But honestly I don't know whether I'll land in the club game or the club slam.

Edit: If North has to start with 2♣ I *could* see something like 1♣-1♦ (1♠); X-2♣; 2♦ (force to 3♦)-2♠ (~5-8, GF); 3♣-3♥ (values); 4♣ (slam try/RKCB)-4♥ (1 with (relative) slam interest); 4♠ (♣Q?)-6♣ (yes) But if opener doesn't support clubs over 2♠ it's going to be ugly, and technically 2♠ could still come from a 3334 hand. So it's not obvious at all.

[awm]

Some of these auctions seem not the most believable to me... but anyway...

Here's the IMPrecision auction:

1♣ - 1♥ (strong, 4+♠ with 2-6RP and 5+ hcp)
1♠ - 2♣ (relay, 4+♣)
2♦ - 2♥ (GF relay, 4♠ and 5+♣)
2NT - 3♦ (relay with short spades, 4225)
3♥ - 3NT (ask RP outside spades, 4)

At this point opener must decide what to do. Basically responder has shown an ace and a queen in hearts and clubs. The worst case probably involves five small clubs and ♥AQ tight, but this is really odds against. This hand is pretty bad for slam especially on a spade lead. However, holding so much honor strength in a short suit is unlikely; as long as at least one of the honors is in clubs slam seems a good bet.

4♣ - 4♠ (one top club, one top heart, no top diamond)
6♣

[straube]

 awm, on 2013-January-18, 15:20, said:

Some of these auctions seem not the most believable to me... but anyway...

Which ones? I want folks to suggest more plausible auctions for me and everyone else. We're not going to get full value out of this unless we do so.

[awm]

 straube, on 2013-January-18, 15:30, said:

Which ones? I want folks to suggest more plausible auctions for me and everyone else. We're not going to get full value out of this unless we do so.

Okay:

Hilver's auction has opener committing to a slam (and I guess looking for a grand off a keycard?) without knowing much about responder's shape or that responder has any high club whatsoever by bidding 5♦ over 5♣. This seems like quite a big unilateral position which of course pans out.

Zelandakh's auction has responder making a general force instead of trying 3nt or a stopper ask or raising the suit opener bid twice, and then opener introduces a three-card suit at the four-level and of course responder has a cheap keycard bid in opener's three-card suit available!

Relknes' auctions seem to be spiraling out of control (when did anyone show extras? why can't we play 3nt?) but of course he lands on his feet.

It just seems like there are a lot of auctions where either responder takes control and pushes really hard for slam on his six-count opposite opener who never showed extras, or where opener unilaterally decides that we need to be in slam opposite 6-8 without a great fit and bypasses both 3nt and 5♣ without solid information.

[straube]

 awm, on 2013-January-18, 20:54, said:

Okay:

Hilver's auction has opener committing to a slam (and I guess looking for a grand off a keycard?) without knowing much about responder's shape or that responder has any high club whatsoever by bidding 5♦ over 5♣. This seems like quite a big unilateral position which of course pans out.

Zelandakh's auction has responder making a general force instead of trying 3nt or a stopper ask or raising the suit opener bid twice, and then opener introduces a three-card suit at the four-level and of course responder has a cheap keycard bid in opener's three-card suit available!

Relknes' auctions seem to be spiraling out of control (when did anyone show extras? why can't we play 3nt?) but of course he lands on his feet.

It just seems like there are a lot of auctions where either responder takes control and pushes really hard for slam on his six-count opposite opener who never showed extras, or where opener unilaterally decides that we need to be in slam opposite 6-8 without a great fit and bypasses both 3nt and 5♣ without solid information.

I think people are trying not to result but it's difficult and some aren't succeeding. I think that 1D (0-7) is great for part score bidding but lousy for slam, especially in contested auctions. I'll list some of my opinions on various auctions...

1) Free's auction starts the same as Justin's and mine but he bids a conservative 5C holding most of the same information. He doesn't have 4D as RKC available, but still, I think he gets to 6C anyway after 1C-1D (1S), dbl-3C, 3S-4C.

2) I think Hilver gets there for the same reason. True, he seems to be searching for the grand off a key card, but prior to that point he has essentially the same information (5 clubs, no spade wastage). 6C is a good guess as it's very likely pd has the CQ.

3) I think Zelandakh gets to 3N. His system has opener describe an Acol 2 (so a very good hand), but responder has shown 0-7 and after responder's first 1N rebid I think there's just not enough to get to slam. 4C (introducing a 3-cd fragment and bypassing 3N) is a huge gamble imo when opener is looking at a second spade stopper. I also don't like that responder takes control. I think it takes two anti-percentage actions to get to slam.

4) IMPrecision has the best auction to slam imo.

5) Richard needs to demonstrate how his relays make bidding past 3N a good bet. I don't think he has enough room. Does Moscito use relay breaks for showing opener's shortness same as IMPrecision? That's the key to the hand. Without that, I would suspect responder of having a wasted spade honor. Responder has only 4 QPs and needs all of that to be working to make. I think 3N is the likeliest possibility. What if responder has Kxxx Qx xx Qxxxx? Richard, what's your relay auction?

6) Relknes' has trouble because of the 0-8 range of 1D. 0-7 is hard enough. If he starts with 1N I see zero chance of getting to slam. If he starts with 3C I see 100%...but 3C doesn't meet his standards. Both 2C and 2S are murky but possible.

7) Not sure what RobF's auction is. If it's 1C-1D(1S), dbl-3C, 3S-4C I think he gets to slam like others who start this way. If it's 1C-1D(1S), dbl-1N I think he gets to 3N.

Curious Justin's thoughts. I think folks need to amend some of these auctions or at least make sure they provide a complete auction. I think if the final bidding outcome is being questioned I might put a question mark next to it to show that there is a difference of opinion.

[relknes]

 awm, on 2013-January-18, 20:54, said:

Relknes' auctions seem to be spiraling out of control (when did anyone show extras? why can't we play 3nt?) but of course he lands on his feet.

It just seems like there are a lot of auctions where either responder takes control and pushes really hard for slam on his six-count opposite opener who never showed extras, or where opener unilaterally decides that we need to be in slam opposite 6-8 without a great fit and bypasses both 3nt and 5♣ without solid information.

I usually go by the theory that you should at least investigate slam if it could be cold opposite a "Perfect minnimum." Here, once opener has shown 5+ clubs, it is cold opposite the ♥A and ♣Q, so once they are known to have a minimum of 6 points, slam is worth a check.
Looking back, I do think I pushed too hard on the hand where the ♠3 was replaced with the ♠J. There, a perfect minimum no longer gets you to a cold slam, so I would probably have left it in 3N (a case of me resulting, unfortunately).
I do think we find it opposite the 2♠ or the 3♣ bids. If you look back at what I posted before partner's hand was revealed, I think that should show that slam was being considered, so long as there was no spade wastage.
Now, will I find it 100% of the time over the board? Probably not. But I think I would have to be having a prety bad day to not have slam at least cross my mind with a hand like south has, so I think if slam isn't reached it is on account of my own blunder.

I really did enjoy not seeing partner's hand. I always wonder if I am resulting, and in fact I think the later 1N hand proves that I sometimes do. I wish we could do more bidding with the other 3 hands hidden, but after a few rounds I realize that such a thing becomes impractical...