[han]

I think that 1D - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H is not forcing, but if you can survive the second and third rounds then you'll be in good shape.

[rhm]

 han, on 2013-January-29, 11:18, said:

I think that 1D - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H is not forcing, but if you can survive the second and third rounds then you'll be in good shape.

A matter of agreement.
1D - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H shows certainly extras. (I have no qualms rebidding 1NT with minimum hands and a singleton spade and 4 hearts)
If you believe 1D - 1S - 2C - 2D - 2H should not be forcing, then 1D - 1S - 2C - 2D - 3H should show the same hand, only stronger.
I think it is better to play 2H as forcing in this sequence.
If 1D-1S-2H is forcing why not this sequence?

Rainer Herrmann

[han]

 rhm, on 2013-January-29, 11:46, said:

If 1D-1S-2H is forcing why not this sequence?

Because 2C was non-forcing and responder did not show values by bidding 2D.

[PhilKing]

 han, on 2013-January-29, 12:06, said:

Because 2C was non-forcing and responder did not show values by bidding 2D.

Yep. I like the idea of playing 2♥ as a strong 4441 here, but if partner passes, I would assume that was a good thing.

Say he has a 5323 5-7 count and we have a 1444 17-19, the chances of making any game must be slim.

[gnasher]

I think 1♦-1♠;2♣-2♦;2♥ is non-game-forcing FSF, with something like a 2254 17-count.

[Fluffy]

maybe for you, I don't play FSF by opener. This doesn't mean I won't bid it with the same hand as you, just that I will call it a descriptive bid. The concept of opener asking on uncontested bidding is alien to me.

[jogs]

If every fourth suit is forcing. How do you bid this hand?

1♦ - 1♠, 2♣ - ?

♠ K6542 ♥ K9852 ♦ 8 ♣ 76.

The main need for 4SF is to distinguish 3 from 4 card support in a major.
1♣ - 1♦, 1♠ - ?.
12+ points with 3 spades is an awkward hand to bid.

[helene_t]

 jogs, on 2013-January-30, 09:13, said:

If every fourth suit is forcing. How do you bid this hand?

1♦ - 1♠, 2♣ - ?

♠ K6542 ♥ K9852 ♦ 8 ♣ 76.

FSF certainly applies in this situaton so you have to bid 2♠ with this hand.

Quote

The main need for 4SF is to distinguish 3 from 4 card support in a major.

No. 3-card support when opener almost certainly doesn't have five is not a problem.

The main purpose of FSF is to make a forcing bid available to responder in situations where other bids below game are non-forcing.

Anyway this doesn't belong in the expert forum so let's get back on topic.

[WellSpyder]

 helene_t, on 2013-January-30, 09:25, said:

FSF certainly applies in this situaton so you have to bid 2♠ with this hand.

I certainly agree with the first half of your sentence, but not necessarily the second. I think Pass and 2♦ are also possible bids. The bids I would never consider are 2♥, as apparently advocated by jogs, or 2NT.

[Zelandakh]

 jogs, on 2013-January-30, 09:13, said:

1♦ - 1♠, 2♣ - ?

♠ K6542 ♥ K9852 ♦ 8 ♣ 76.

Funnily enough, my system does not use 4th suit forcing here so I have the same solution as you suggest available. That is only because 1♠ specifically shows a weak hand though. Playing normal methods you just have to sign off in the strain that seems like the best bet.

[jogs]

♠K6542 ♥K9852 ♦8 ♣76.

 helene_t, on 2013-January-30, 09:25, said:

FSF certainly applies in this situaton so you have to bid 2♠ with this hand.

Anyway this doesn't belong in the expert forum so let's get back on topic.

So you're telling me that
1=4=4=4 facing 5=5=1=2
the bidding should go
1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♠.
Neither player is allowed to show hearts with their
5-4 fit and this dilemma doesn't belong in the expert
forum.

[aguahombre]

disregard. Thought we were in a reverse auction.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2013-January-31, 23:00

[Zelandakh]

 jogs, on 2013-January-31, 22:44, said:

So you're telling me that
1=4=4=4 facing 5=5=1=2
the bidding should go
1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♠.

Nah, the bidding should go:
1♦ = 4+ diamonds, unbal
... - 1♠ = weak, 4+ spades
1NT = 4 hearts
... - 2/3♥ = to play/invite

Obviously!

[gnasher]

 jogs, on 2013-January-31, 22:44, said:

♠K6542 ♥K9852 ♦8 ♣76.



So you're telling me that
1=4=4=4 facing 5=5=1=2
the bidding should go
1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♠.

Many players would rebid 1NT on a 1444 shape, partly to avoid losing a heart fit and partly to avoid playing a 4-2 diamond fit.

Quote

Neither player is allowed to show hearts with their
5-4 fit and this dilemma doesn't belong in the expert
forum.

I expect this dilemma was discussed extensively in the 1950s, when FSF was invented. We can't always rely on the majority to be right, but the fact that FSF was adopted by almost everyone suggests that there is merit in the convention.

As with all artificial methods, the cost of playing FSF is that you can no longer use the bid naturally. This has to be weighed against the benefits on other hands, which include:
- Being able to make a low-level forcing bid.
- Being able to ask partner to describe his hand, instead of making a misdescriptive bid yourself.
- Playing 3NT from the right side.

[Adebisi]

If guess Reverse Flannery response to 1D was invented to solve this problem , to let responder to bid 2H with 4+H/5+s and 5-9 hcp so that opener have to choose between majors , but not responder have to choose between passing 2c or bid 2s with 5512, because 2H is 4th suit forsing:)

[aguahombre]

The much maligned Mini-Roman opening bid solves the problem of certain continuation dilemmas, as well. We have pretty much all agreed on multiple threads that all 4x1 hands of various strengths are a PITA in the bidding and usually awkward in the play.

[jogs]

I have no aversion to rebidding 1NT with 1=3=5=4 or 1=4=4=4. With 15+
HCP 1NT isn't a viable option. FSF is really a convention to facilitate major suit
bidding. Most bidding systems aren't designed for minors. Major suits are too
valuable to squander as artificial. 1♣-1♦, 1♥-1♠ and 1♦-1♠,2♣-2♥
should both be natural. We can ill afford to lose a major suit.

5=5=1=2. ♠Q8642 ♥KQT93 ♦5 ♣75.
1♦-1♠, 2♣-2♠????

I refuse to play any system which requires responder to bid spades and rebid
spades with this hand.