[kieran c]

This question might only be relevant to Acol bidders.
I pick up a 2 point hand with 4 hearts (♠3 ♥4 ♦4 ♣2). My partner opens 1♣, RHO overcalls 1♠, I pass. Partner rebids 2♥ so I know he has 16+pts; I bid 3♥, he raises to 4♥, down 1.
Should I have passed his 2♥ and only bid ♥ if ops bid again? Will my partner be angry if he makes 2♥+2? Perhaps he should not have raised to 4♥, but he is an ambitious bidder and a good player (it is almost against his religion to play in 3♥).
We all know that his reverse is forcing for 1 round, but we learned this in the context where I (responder) have bid showing at least 6pts. I cannot find guidance on this situation where partner only gets to show his reverse thanks to an overcall by ops.
Is the fact that I have passed (we use negative doubles so with 6pts and 4♥ I would have doubled) enough to let partner work out that I have few pts?
If I pass his 2♥ and bid 3♥ only if ops bid 2♠ he might assume I have only 3♥.
Suggestions?

[relknes]

 kieran c, on 2013-January-14, 11:40, said:

This question might only be relevant to Acol bidders.
I pick up a 2 point hand with 4 hearts (♠3 ♥4 ♦4 ♣2). My partner opens 1♣, RHO overcalls 1♠, I pass. Partner rebids 2♥ so I know he has 16+pts; I bid 3♥, he raises to 4♥, down 1.
Should I have passed his 2♥ and only bid ♥ if ops bid again? Will my partner be angry if he makes 2♥+2? Perhaps he should not have raised to 4♥, but he is an ambitious bidder and a good player (it is almost against his religion to play in 3♥).
We all know that his reverse is forcing for 1 round, but we learned this in the context where I (responder) have bid showing at least 6pts. I cannot find guidance on this situation where partner only gets to show his reverse thanks to an overcall by ops.
Is the fact that I have passed (we use negative doubles so with 6pts and 4♥ I would have doubled) enough to let partner work out that I have few pts?
If I pass his 2♥ and bid 3♥ only if ops bid 2♠ he might assume I have only 3♥.
Suggestions?

Let me preface this by saying I am not overly familliar with Acol.

I think that bidding 3♥ there shows some interest in game (maybe 5-7 HCP with your shape). With 2 points, you don't belong in game unless partner had enough to open with a strong 2. Pass, and if you end up in 2♥+2, then that's partner's fault for not showing their strength.

[Cyberyeti]

1♣-1♠from you-2♥ shows 16+

1♣-1♠from opponent-P-P-2♥ is not so clear that it shouldn't be bigger than 16+ (cf 1♣-1♠-2♣ vs 1♣-(1♠)-P-P-2♣)

This is not a straight forward reverse, a 16+ reverse is opposite 5+, this one is opposite 0+.

Opposite what I'd expect for 2♥ I'd bid 3♥, but then I'd be doubling rather than bidding 2♥ on the 16 counts I suspect.

[kieran c]

 relknes, on 2013-January-14, 12:23, said:

Let me preface this by saying I am not overly familliar with Acol.

I think that bidding 3♥ there shows some interest in game (maybe 5-7 HCP with your shape). With 2 points, you don't belong in game unless partner had enough to open with a strong 2. Pass, and if you end up in 2♥+2, then that's partner's fault for not showing their strength.

Thank you. We don't use strong 2s but use Benji 2♣ to show (single-suited) hands with 9 winners (and 2♦ for hands with 10 winners), however 2 suiters are best bid starting with a bid of 1 suit so it is just possible he might have a 2 suited hand which needs just 1 trick from me to make game..just.

[kieran c]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-14, 12:39, said:

1♣-1♠from you-2♥ shows 16+

1♣-1♠from opponent-P-P-2♥ is not so clear that it shouldn't be bigger than 16+ (cf 1♣-1♠-2♣ vs 1♣-(1♠)-P-P-2♣)

This is not a straight forward reverse, a 16+ reverse is opposite 5+, this one is opposite 0+.

Opposite what I'd expect for 2♥ I'd bid 3♥, but then I'd be doubling rather than bidding 2♥ on the 16 counts I suspect.

Apologies...I may have not made it clear that the auction went 1♣ (1♠): pass by me (pass), 2h (pass) to me....at which point I bid 3♥ and wondered if I was overencouraging.

This post has been edited by kieran c: 2013-January-14, 18:10

[Cyberyeti]

 kieran c, on 2013-January-14, 14:28, said:

Apologies...I may have not made it clear that the auction went 1♣ (1♠): pass by me (pass), 2h (pass) to me....at which point I bid 2♥ and wondered if I was overencouraging.

I know (I assume you mean 3♥ at the end of your post), what I'm saying is that your partner's 2♥ should be a lot bigger than 16, so bidding 3♥ is not silly. I'd bid 1♣-(1♠)-P-P-X unless I had a really big hand (or a fairly big very offensive 6-5).

[kieran c]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-14, 15:09, said:

I know (I assume you mean 3♥ at the end of your post), what I'm saying is that your partner's 2♥ should be a lot bigger than 16, so bidding 3♥ is not silly. I'd bid 1♣-(1♠)-P-P-X unless I had a really big hand (or a fairly big very offensive 6-5).

Thanks...error corrected yes you are right I meant 3h. Reopening with X instead of 2h makes sense if opener has 16pts.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

Partner did not have a strong 2C opening - i.e. one trick from you is not enough
to give game a fair chance.
You discovered a fit, the fit will be worth a trick (the shortage) / maybe 1 1/2,
be happy, pass.

The question has nothing to do with Acol, you could ask the same question in the
conext of a 5 card major system with strong NT.

Finally partner made a reverse, but in the end he just reopened with shortage in
their suit, and a nice looking 64 hand with 14HCP would be ok for me, provided
vulnerability / scoring are for it.
2H just says, that partner is willing to play 3C vs. a near misfit, and does not
want to sell out to 2S, but has no interest in playing 1SX.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

marlowe is right .

[Cyberyeti]

Wouldn't you bid that way with xx, AKxxx, void, AKxxxx or xx, AKxx, A, AKxxxx where game is great as well as the 2425 19s where you probably don't want to be in game.

[P_Marlowe]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-15, 05:50, said:

Wouldn't you bid that way with xx, AKxxx, void, AKxxxx or xx, AKxx, A, AKxxxx where game is great as well as the 2425 19s where you probably don't want to be in game.

The 5422 hands with 19HCP we can ignore, since one would reopen the bidding with a X, a
bid suggested by you, which I would also choose, given this hand type.

But what to bid with the 65hands and 14HCP+ is a valid question.

In my regular partnership, I would go via a good/bad 2NT sequence, not perfect, since 2NT
says nothing about my 2nd suit.

In the end, it boils down to partnership agreement, do you focus more on the hands, that
did not open with 2C - strong 2-suiter are the candidates, which dont want to commit to
the 4 level, or do you focus more on the part score fight.
If you focus on the first part, 2H should be played as forcing, if you focus on the 2nd part
2H should be nonforcing.
If 2H is NF pass is clear, if 2H is F, than 3H is clear.

For me and my partner the answer is clear, we focus on the part score fight, we wont miss game,
if partner has a fit and 5/6+ HCPs (or a bid fit + shape), but may miss it if we are super strong
and partner has (suitable) min for our strong hand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Also a point to consider is the min requirement strength for a Neg. X, how much do you need
besides the 4 hearts to make some noise.