[straube]

Playing a team game, all vul.

Partner opens a Precision 1H (10-15)

1H P 1N P
2N P 3C P
3D (3S) dbl


2N showed 6H/5m and 3C was pass or correct

The hand is...

..........AJ9842
..........Q865
..........T9
..........J

void.............KQ6
AJT974........3
KJ732..........Q864
A4...............KT852
..........T753
..........K2
..........A5
..........Q9753

So it made 3S and we did our post-mortem.

I actually think 3S doubled is an ok spot. I lead a heart which is wrong because I don't want a ruff. Partner could have played the 9 and later squashed the queen. He felt bad about that, but I think my opening lead was the problem.

My question though is...did I have any business doubling 3S? What would a suitable hand look like? I think I have two likely spade tricks and a likely club, too. However, this is teams and you don't double close contracts in teams.

To what degree is my double cooperative? Should partner pull to 4C to complete his description? With a singleton he should certainly pass. With a void, knows the opponents have a 10-cd fit. Should he care? I could have AQT of spades instead of KQx.

I think the community will vote for me not to double but pass or bid 4D instead and for partner to pass the double, but I'm not sure. It does make 5D. Possibly 3N.
What's your take?

[MrAce]

I think your dbl is penalty oriented, but there is lot to be said about this if your 1NT refused 4 card spades.

My concern is your 4 card support to your pd in diamonds which he has no clue about. After all you would bid the same with 3136 3127, no ? Of course i have no idea how light your pd can open when holding 6-5 hand. For example me... i would have opened without the ♣ A as well ( Void AJT9xx KJTxx xx) . If your pd is that type of player, double may not be in your best interest imo. Especially as you stated in teams. If my pd is known not to open with 9ish hcp and 6-5 i would double them on any given day. Because make a small change in cards you are looking at easy +500 when u were about to play partscore and if lucky you are looking at +800.

About the lead. Do not be too unfair to yourself. ♥ lead is not good if you led it to ruff, but i doubt this was your intention. After all you are leading one of your pd's suits. There are hands that would perfectly fit to the auction and where ♦ lead can be inferior and ♥ could be the winner.

I have a question though, did you really bid 3♣ with the intention to pass when pd corrects ? I think you did because he could have passed 3♣. If you change your pd's black suits you would be cold (almost) for slam, let alone game. So i think you owed a raise to your pd with 4 card fit without 3♠ overcall anyway ( or 4♣ bid previous round) With a hand full of controls such as your pd's hand, he can easily raise it to game. I know he is limited to 15 hcp, but...when he has 6-5 he really doesn't even need 15 to make game. Sometimes a 6-5 holder can easily bid game himself if he/she knows pd has 4 card support.

[MrAce]

I wish you had posted this without NS hands and the result. Nice hand to post anyway.

[straube]

Thanks. No, I didn't lead it to get a ruff but because usually the 6-cd suit will be stronger than the 5-cd suit (in terms of honors) and because I thought we might have more defensive tricks in hearts coming.

It's true, partner could be lighter than what he had with a 6/5. He could certainly have a 9-ct or even less.

I did bid 3C as p/c. I could have bid 3D to ask about his hand and should have as you suggest. If he'd had clubs instead...

A lot of this (for me) comes down to whether we've described our hand sufficiently. From my vantage point, I'm telling partner that I have a good 3-cd spade holding and some defense. I didn't expect my CK would be working necessarily. I was thinking partner might be 1651 and that my cards would not necessarily be useful opposite that. So I doubled to describe my hand.

From partner's vantage point, he's shown 11 of his cards already and he is far from minimum.

Question is...should I have had a bit more defense for my double? Even having described 11 of his cards, could partner have bid 4C there and described the last 2? With 0562 he knows we have at least an 8-cd fit somewhere.

Maybe I judged well to double and he judged well to pass. I don't know. Why I'm asking.

[MrAce]

straube, on 2013-January-14, 02:15, said:

Thanks. No, I didn't lead it to get a ruff but because usually the 6-cd suit will be stronger than the 5-cd suit (in terms of honors) and because I thought we might have more defensive tricks in hearts coming.

It's true, partner could be lighter than what he had with a 6/5. He could certainly have a 9-ct or even less.

I did bid 3C as p/c. I could have bid 3D to ask about his hand and should have as you suggest. If he'd had clubs instead...

A lot of this (for me) comes down to whether we've described our hand sufficiently. From my vantage point, I'm telling partner that I have a good 3-cd spade holding and some defense. I didn't expect my CK would be working necessarily. I was thinking partner might be 1651 and that my cards would not necessarily be useful opposite that. So I doubled to describe my hand.

From partner's vantage point, he's shown 11 of his cards already and he is far from minimum.

Question is...should I have had a bit more defense for my double? Even having described 11 of his cards, could partner have bid 4C there and described the last 2? With 0562 he knows we have at least an 8-cd fit somewhere.

Maybe I judged well to double and he judged well to pass. I don't know. Why I'm asking.

Personally i would have passed if i was your pd regardless of what i have. ( unless you have specific agreement that says doubles which denied 4 card suit in their suit previously are always cooperative) I agree with him that after showing 6-5 hand if my pd is doubling them i would take it as penalty more than i wanna play it as cooperative. I mean look at your opps, the guy didnt bid at 1 level , not at 2 level, and he came in at 3 level. This is bad. After opps learnt everything and decided to play only partscore, vulnerable he came in. As i said your pd could have 1-1 or 2-0 blacks other way arround. He was looking at -500 or worse perhaps. Make your pd xx AJTxxx Axxxx void and you are getting +800 and there is a good chance you are not making game depending on ♦ split or spots.

Even now, with a luckier lead, or better defense you could have scored +200 when you were about to get +130 or +150

But as you confirmed that he may have opened with a 9 hcp as well, which means he could be an ace less than what he had, double is risky imo. I saw Justin and other good players playing precision opening 1♣ with a good 5-5 or 6-5 hands and 15 hcp.

But thats why i said it would be better if you gave the hand w/o result and ns hands, because i may as well be resulting eventhough i am trying not to.

[Cyberyeti]

If 3♣ is pass/correct, you're too good, are you really going to enjoy 3♣+4 opposite a 2605 hand with 3 bare aces ?

As it is, 5♦ is a great contract and 6 a poor one that might make (and does if you guess the hearts correctly with the trumps 2-2 and don't suffer a club ruff).

Don't double opps with a big fit that partner doesn't know about.

[Codo]

I like your double. You denied 4 spades, 3 hearts or long clubs with your bidding so far. You cannot have a more penalty orientated hand at this point as you hold. But of course this is just lucky because your 3 ♣ bid was wrong.

[pigpenz]

SJ Simon Why You Lose at Bridge
The unlucky expert

[straube]

As far as the late 3S entry, has anyone considered that the bid could have been made with even a 4-cd suit? Maybe less? I've denied four spades and partner has denied three. I denied an invitational hand (which I shouldn't have done) and partner can't have more than 15. So the opponents can guesstimate that they have 8+ spades and about half the deck. Give one of them shortness in our suit and bidding to 3S on a 4-cd suit seems plausible. I think that argues for why double might be a good bid here. It gives partner a better picture of our offense/defense possibilities.

I think in the future we'll play...

1H-1N, 2N-?
.....3C-p/c, possible diamond interest
.....3D-club interest
.....3H-preference
.....3S-asking partner to bid his minor

[TylerE]

I think partner automatically loses the post-mortem when he fails to bid 2♦ (or 3♦ if playing a very light opening style) over 1N. 2N is a gross misdescription of his hand. I think X if 3♠ is perfectly reasonable IFF partner actually has a hand resembling a 2N rebid.

[wyman]

TylerE, on 2013-January-14, 13:32, said:

I think partner automatically loses the post-mortem when he fails to bid 2♦ (or 3♦ if playing a very light opening style) over 1N. 2N is a gross misdescription of his hand. I think X if 3♠ is perfectly reasonable IFF partner actually has a hand resembling a 2N rebid.

Except that OP described 2N as conventional, showing 6H/5m, in which case it's a pretty darn good description of the hand!

[ArtK78]

straube, on 2013-January-14, 01:27, said:

Playing a team game, all vul.

Partner opens a Precision 1H (10-15)

1H P 1N P
2N P 3C P
3D (3S) dbl


2N showed 6H/5m and 3C was pass or correct

***

straube, on 2013-January-14, 02:15, said:

Thanks. No, I didn't lead it to get a ruff but because usually the 6-cd suit will be stronger than the 5-cd suit (in terms of honors) and because I thought we might have more defensive tricks in hearts coming.

It's true, partner could be lighter than what he had with a 6/5. He could certainly have a 9-ct or even less.

***

I have a problem with these two posts. Pardon me for a divergence (I won't call it a hijacking, because it is still your thread).

First, you say that the 1♥ opening is Precision, 10-15 HCP. Then, when specifically asked about the values shown by partner's 2NT bid (showing 6-5 in hearts and a minor) you say that "He could certainly have a 9-ct or even less."

Did you tell your opponents this? And, assuming that you did, did you announce prior to the commencement of the auction that you might open an 8 or a 9 count with one of a suit if it is distributional, and you have conventional calls that show these hands?

I suspect (but cannot state) that your methods are illegal. Even if they are not, you are not disclosing them properly to your opponents.

As for the hand itself, you have much too much in the minor suits to be interested in defending a spade contract. At the very least, you have an invitational hand. I suspect that many might just bid 5♣ pass or correct (assuming that you can do that) as a two-way action - (1) you might make 5 of a minor, and (2) the opps might make a lot of tricks in spades.

[TylerE]

He described the opening as 10-15, not 10-15 HCP. So counting either length points for the long suits, or shortness for the shortness and you can easily get to 10 "playing" points under most counting systems. Wether THAT agreement is legal in any given jurisdiction is of course an open question.

[ArtK78]

TylerE, on 2013-January-14, 14:24, said:

He described the opening as 10-15, not 10-15 HCP. So counting either length points for the long suits, or shortness for the shortness and you can easily get to 10 "playing" points under most counting systems. Wether THAT agreement is legal in any given jurisdiction is of course an open question.

I agree with you that the OP says 10-15, not 10-15 HCP. However, there is an implication that 10-15 means 10-15 HCP unless one states to the contrary.

However, in his later post, the OP says that it could be a 9-ct or possibly less. Again, he did not say HCP.

Perhaps the OP can clarify.

[straube]

ArtK78, on 2013-January-14, 14:12, said:

I have a problem with these two posts. Pardon me for a divergence (I won't call it a hijacking, because it is still your thread).

First, you say that the 1♥ opening is Precision, 10-15 HCP. Then, when specifically asked about the values shown by partner's 2NT bid (showing 6-5 in hearts and a minor) you say that "He could certainly have a 9-ct or even less."

Did you tell your opponents this? And, assuming that you did, did you announce prior to the commencement of the auction that you might open an 8 or a 9 count with one of a suit if it is distributional, and you have conventional calls that show these hands?

I suspect (but cannot state) that your methods are illegal. Even if they are not, you are not disclosing them properly to your opponents.

As for the hand itself, you have much too much in the minor suits to be interested in defending a spade contract. At the very least, you have an invitational hand. I suspect that many might just bid 5♣ pass or correct (assuming that you can do that) as a two-way action - (1) you might make 5 of a minor, and (2) the opps might make a lot of tricks in spades.

I have a problem with your problem.

Our weak NT range (i.e. open 1H and rebid 1N) is 11-13 which is one point shy of Standard American. I'd hardly describe that (not that you did) as a light opening so it's not something we pre-announce, but we open lighter with distributional hands same as most people. We might open a 10 pt 5431 hand while Standard American players might only do so with 11. We generally don't open lighter than 10, but a 6/5 has a lot of playing potential and we upgrade accordingly. If it's much lighter than 10 we open a weak two (our range there is 5-9) and rebid our second suit when chance allows.

When I see standard players open 1H with x AJxxxx KJTxx x I don't call the director or question their ethics. I don't ask why they didn't pre-alert that their heart could be this light. I think hardly anyone would.

So you can have the last word on that. I think you don't know much about this topic at all.

[Cyberyeti]

ArtK78, on 2013-January-14, 15:24, said:

I agree with you that the OP says 10-15, not 10-15 HCP. However, there is an implication that 10-15 means 10-15 HCP unless one states to the contrary.

However, in his later post, the OP says that it could be a 9-ct or possibly less. Again, he did not say HCP.

Perhaps the OP can clarify.

A 9 count 6-5 is rule of 20, everybody not being obtuse accepts that's a pretty normal opening bid for many people.

We actually put "Rule of 19" on ours, many people playing standard would put 10+/11+ and open the same hands.

If you're regularly going to upgrade 6-5 13/14 counts to 1♣, then maybe you need to say something.

[ArtK78]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-January-14, 15:37, said:

A 9 count 6-5 is rule of 20, everybody not being obtuse accepts that's a pretty normal opening bid for many people.

We actually put "Rule of 19" on ours, many people playing standard would put 10+/11+ and open the same hands.

If you're regularly going to upgrade 6-5 13/14 counts to 1♣, then maybe you need to say something.

Really? First of all, not everyone subscribes to opening every hand that meets the "Rule of 20." And that can be taken to extremes. What you are saying is that this is a normal one bid for most people:

KJxxx A Jxxxxx x

And no one said anything about upgrading distributional 13/14 counts to 1♣ openings.

I don't believe you will get a lot of support for your position.

[Cyberyeti]

ArtK78, on 2013-January-14, 17:01, said:

Really? First of all, not everyone subscribes to opening every hand that meets the "Rule of 20." And that can be taken to extremes. What you are saying is that this is a normal one bid for most people:

KJxxx A Jxxxxx x

And no one said anything about upgrading distributional 13/14 counts to 1♣ openings.

I don't believe you will get a lot of support for your position.

No, that hand is not truly worth rule of 20, I probably would still open it, but make the higher ranking suit 6 cards (as is known to be the case here) I do without a thought, but ♥KJxxxx/♦AJxxx would be opened by pretty much anybody although if you play 6-10 two suited 2s you might open that.

The point I was making with the 1♣ opener is that if you upgrade a lot of 6-5 13 or 14 counts so partner is not taking them into account in his bidding (as it appears is the case by the fact that responder has bid a p/c 3♣ opposite what could be a really fine grand in clubs or small slam in diamonds) then you owe opps a better explanation than you've given.

[655321]

I really hate the double, and am in the camp of those who want to be in 5 of partner's minor after learning that he is 6-5.

straube, on 2013-January-14, 01:27, said:

Should partner pull to 4C to complete his description?

straube, on 2013-January-14, 02:15, said:

A lot of this (for me) comes down to whether we've described our hand sufficiently. From my vantage point, I'm telling partner that I have a good 3-cd spade holding and some defense.
...
So I doubled to describe my hand.
...
could partner have bid 4C there and described the last 2? With 0562 he knows we have at least an 8-cd fit somewhere.

Maybe I judged well to double
...

Also don't agree with all this stuff about both of you describing your hands to the last card, bridge is not like that, at some point someone has to place the contract and when partner has shown a limited and distributional hand with 5 diamonds that someone is you.

straube, on 2013-January-14, 10:52, said:

I think in the future we'll play...

More system is not the answer, with no system partner can open 1♥ and rebid 3♦, and you would bid 5♦.