[jillybean]

 dustinst22, on 2013-January-13, 12:46, said:

I'm pretty discouraged to see this kind of thing. I feel like the director was taking advantage of me because I'm not a regular player at the club, and she didnt want to upset the regulars and one of her fellow directors. The director didn't even bother to look at East's hand to see if it was a logical decision if he was able to ignore the UI.

Unfortunately, this is how it is in many club games. People want to play what they consider to be a nice game rather than follow the laws of the game.

[blackshoe]

"matchpoint damage" is irrelevant anyway.

[PhilKing]

Just relax.

In local duplicates you will have a much better time if you don't call the director unless you have to.

[dustinst22]

 PhilKing, on 2013-January-14, 18:38, said:

Just relax.

In local duplicates you will have a much better time if you don't call the director unless you have to.

So to be clear, in this situation I shouldn't have called the director?

[Phil]

 PhilKing, on 2013-January-14, 18:38, said:

Just relax.

In local duplicates you will have a much better time if you don't call the director unless you have to.

Like in cases of blatant UI like this one?

Good advice.

[wyman]

 PhilKing, on 2013-January-14, 18:38, said:

Just relax.

In local duplicates you will have a much better time if you don't call the director unless you have to.

This is true, but:

 dustinst22, on 2013-January-14, 20:47, said:

So to be clear, in this situation I shouldn't have called the director?

Everyone draws his own line in the sand. This seems egregious enough that I think it's fine to call. But there are a lot of things I'd call about in a tournament that I've recently become incredibly passive about at clubs. Mostly I just go to clubs to see 24-28 real life hands, and I'm worried more about being pleasant company than I am about winning.

Don't get me wrong. I don't begrudge any of the SB's their rights. But seeing rulings from incompetent directors (not that these don't exist at tournaments but it's far less frequent) combined with developing too many adversarial relationships (not that I care that much, but for getting partners, teammates, and possibly clients in the future, image matters), I've just decided to let more things go at clubs. Again, that's a personal choice, and you'll develop your comfort zone over time.

I think in general it's better to call more rather than less until you get a good grasp on the laws. Pose things in terms of questions (not accusations), just state the facts to the director, and always be courteous to the directors and opps. And if you're ever unsure, you have a ton of resources (both high level players and the L&R forum here, for starters).

[PhilKing]

 dustinst22, on 2013-January-14, 20:47, said:

So to be clear, in this situation I shouldn't have called the director?

I would not say "shouldn't". I defend your right to ask for a ruling absolutely.

[gnasher]

 dustinst22, on 2013-January-14, 20:47, said:

So to be clear, in this situation I shouldn't have called the director?

No, you definitely *should* have called the director. You believed (correctly, from what you've told us) that an opponent had broken the rules and that he had gained as a result. Naturally, you were unhappy about this, so you were quite right to call the diretcor.

People have different perspectives about this, depending on why they go to bridge clubs. From the sound of it, most of your live bridge is played in a bridge club, so you're hoping to do well, and an honest game is important to you.

Other people play most of their bridge in tournaments, and only go to bridge clubs for practice. For them, winning is less important, and they may decide that the aggravation of asking for a ruling isn't worth it. That is, they choose to accept an unfair disadvantage because they don't care enough to object. There's no reason for you to do the same.

Personally I'd get the director regardless of what sort of game I was playing in. I let some things slide in club games, but this is so egregious that I wouldn't.

[P_Marlowe]

 dustinst22, on 2013-January-14, 20:47, said:

So to be clear, in this situation I shouldn't have called the director?

Call the director, but accept the decision, even if you think the decision was wrong.
If you think, the decision was wrong, draw your conclusions, try to avoid the club
in future.

As it is, in local games this normal, so unless you want to create burtn earth behind
you, dont write the letter to the ruling body in charge.
As a newcomer, you are a guess in someone elses house, if you are a guest you try to
follow the rules, set by the one, who invited you. After the party is over, you can
decide, if you want to repeat the experience.

Usually you wont loose against those pairs because of those boards, if they need those
boards, you will beat them regular without much effort, even in those games.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Trinidad]

 blackshoe, on 2013-January-14, 15:26, said:

"matchpoint damage" is irrelevant anyway.

Technically that is true. But I don't have a real problem with a club TD who doesn't spend a lot of time figuring out whether (at MPs) he should give an AS of 6♦X-8 when the table result was 5♦X-7. And yes, according to the law book he should.

I do have a real problem with a club TD who rules "no damage", when the damage is pretty obvious, just because one of his regulars is the culprit.

Rik

[blackshoe]

 Trinidad, on 2013-January-15, 08:19, said:

I do have a real problem with a club TD who rules "no damage", when the damage is pretty obvious, just because one of his regulars is the culprit.

I suspect that most of us do.

[Phil]

 PhilKing, on 2013-January-14, 18:38, said:

Just relax.

This is actually the crux of the issue.

- If you are comfortable that the director is competent enough to make a ruling, then call the director. After all, you were damaged, and there isn't much debate here. If you think this issue is beyond the director's pay grade, then you probably aren't getting an adjustment anyway.

- If you have made a conscious choice not to worry about matters like this because you are playing in a club because you want to practice or to get seasoning, then do not call the director, but feel free to have a chuckle with your partner after the round and move on.

Here's my POV. I will call the director in these types of matters at a club, if the following conditions are met:

- I feel the director can correctly sort out the issue. Of the seven directors (not including me) at our club, I think four could work it out. At a neighboring club I sometimes play at, not a single director could. Frankly, this just isn't for my benefit, its for my opponents' benefit too. I do not ever want to get the reputation as a player that intimidates a weak director and I'm getting a ruling because they are rolling over and deferring to me.

- The player making the hitch isn't a "C" level player. A C player just doesn't understand the duties of a player that is in possession of UI. There will come a time in their development where they need to learn this, but it does not have to be in the heat of battle.

[pigpenz]

I tend to agree with Phil on his above points...I just wish that when
the player doing this isnt a "c" player that sometimes the TD would come down
a little harder on them especially when they have more experience.

the problem in acbl land is it used to be quite a status to have over 1000MPs(70's/80's)
now having that many points doesnt mean competence. Alot of players achieve this results only
aginst their lower level peers with out ever playing against higher ranked players. Alot of times
these type of things happen against their peers(lower level players) and these people both offending
and nonoffending arent even aware of the ramifications of what happens at the table in these situations.

Local TDs are usually tring to make sure the seats are filled at the club, so they generally dont want to
offend the weaker players they most of the time know the higher players can take it.

[dustinst22]

played at the same club tonight, lol. The director who made the call was there and played against us, i got my revenge . Doubled partial making, slam, and a couple other top boards.

[Phil]

 dustinst22, on 2013-January-17, 01:21, said:

played at the same club tonight, lol. The director who made the call was there and played against us, i got my revenge . Doubled partial making, slam, and a couple other top boards.

....proving bridge karma is alive and well. WD

[Sjoerds]

No doubt the murmer "Oh....." is UI for partner.
Lets ask some players what they would do with east red against white.

I would pass.