[Adebisi]

After playing some years Precision(means 10+ years),i like to switch to natural.But , biggest weakness in natural systems i think the 1C/D openings, like 11-21 3+ suit - could be 12-14 bal 3carder or 18 7carder.1D 4+ and 1c 2+ better , but not big improvment. So i thougt something like:
1C 15-21: either 15-19 bal(incl. 5D332) or 15-21 4+ clubs unbalanced
1D 11-21 4+diam unbal incl 11-15 4D/5c, never 5D332
1H/S 11-21 5+
1NT 12-14 (system focus for IMP-s and teams so weak NT) , incl. 441d4
2c 11-15 Precision
2D 22-23 bal /any FG
2H/S weak 2-s
2NT 20-21 bal
So minor suit openings are far more better defined, and against 1C u cant use your agressive str club defences coz still passable openig,means u cant pass with good hands and come in with shitty ones.2D gameforce is not so "good" as 2C but 2c is already a weak spot of natural systems, so no big harm done.Also coz of competive auction i dont like the "Nightmare system" idea include 22+ hands into 1C opening.Comments pls:)

[Hanoi5]

Why don't you keep playing precision? It's just a question, not trying to be mean or anything.

[mgoetze]

Unbalanced 1♦ is pretty well-known and obvious, especially with transfer responses to 1♣. I think your idea of adding a precision 2♣ to a natural system is not bad, but I think it would work better with a strong NT - your 1♣ opening seems a bit too rare for my taste.

[f0rdy]

mgoetze, on 2012-December-29, 11:26, said:

Unbalanced 1♦ is pretty well-known and obvious, especially with transfer responses to 1♣. I think your idea of adding a precision 2♣ to a natural system is not bad, but I think it would work better with a strong NT - your 1♣ opening seems a bit too rare for my taste.

It does seem an interesting idea; I've played unbalanced (or nearly unbalanced eg 1D = unbalanced or 18-19 5D332) diamond systems a bit, and it seemed like one issue was that unbalanced 11-15 club hands are a 'halfway house' between the weak NT and the stronger hands. If they've been removed to a 2c opener, then a lot of competitive auctions will become cleaner; when it starts
1♣ - 1♠ - something - 2♠ - ? you can now just pass with the weak NT, and bid or double with the unbalanced 16+ or 18-19 balanced, rather than having a 1426 14 count to worry about.

Obviously you give up a 2D pre-empt (and a bit of accuracy with the GF openers), but it seems a much better reason than some of the things people give up a 2m pre-empt for.

Edit: Just realised I've just been making arguments for swedish club, essentially; are there good reasons either way for having the GF hands in 2D or 1C?

[Vampyr]

Have you looked into Polish Club?

[FrancesHinden]

Adebisi, on 2012-December-29, 07:08, said:

1NT 12-14 (system focus for IMP-s and teams so weak NT) , incl. 441d4

THis is a bit strange. The various NT ranges have different pros and cons but if anything weak NT is more of a matchpoint system.

p.s. before re-inventing the wheel, why not look at the Polish and Swedish club systems?

[Adebisi]

Polish and Swdedish are basically strong club systems with added weak notrump and in my opinion Precision is way better than those two.Also these systems with weak notrump are quite bizarre,more like some 15+ strong club systems:)As with weak notrump in matchpoints, u go against the room , if they bid 1m-1s-2s-pass the best possible contract u have to score 8 tricks with combined 20 hcp or so , obious that 2s guys score better. @ imps +90 is not a problem, at MP its zero.

[chasetb]

I think you are giving short shift to Nightmare. Most of the hands you open 1♣ are in fact natural, they just start at (14)15+ HCP instead of (10)11+. The hands that would normally open 2♣ are exceedingly rare, and a fourth of those are hands with primary Clubs, and you are right-siding them. Even if it isn't Clubs, you still have plenty a chance of finding the right fit, and there isn't any assurance that opening it 2♣ or 2♦ would have done a better job.

[Free]

Seems like the reason why you want to stop playing precision is because of the aggressive intervention over the strong opening. When you pre-alert the 1♣ opening however, your opponents will ask "so you always have 15+HCP?" and your response will be "yes", after which they'll use their strong ♣ defense anyway.

My initial thought was, like others, to look at Polish/Swedish ♣ systems, and when I noticed the weak NT I also thought about Nightmare. However, Nightmare also suffers from the fact that it's always strong. Like you said, a weak NT makes these kind of systems look like a 15+ strong ♣ system.

In one of my good partnerships we play 2/1 GF (except rebid). The lack of information after a 1m opening isn't that bad imo. For starters, our 1♦ opening is always a 4 card suit, except when you hold 4=4=3=2. When opps intervene we consider this always a 4+ card suit. When that's not satisfying, the alternative is to take this 1 hand out of the 1♦ opening and put it into the 1♣ opening. Next step is to make 1♦ unbalanced, why not, we already have a 1♣ opening showing only 2+♣ so we might as well overload it a bit. At that point you have a 1♣ opening showing 2+♣ (balanced or natural) after which your response structure can make up for the poor description of opener's hand. When you want to overload 1♣ even more, you can add some strong hands as well. However, the 1♣ opening now gets too much overloaded, so you have to introduce a natural 2♣ opening. We get to Polish/Swedish ♣. Throw in a weak NT and we're at Nightmare.

Some remarks about your system proposal:
- I take it that you treat all of your 4441's as balanced? I like that (did it myself in the past) and it solves a lot of system issues imo.
- A standard Precision 2♣ opening isn't that good.
- I don't like the 2♦ opening. You take up too much space imo. 2♣ is already quite high in standard systems, but you have to open even higher. How do you plan to respond and what does opener do with 24+ balanced?
- The unbalanced 1♦ opening will definitely be an improvement. You get 1♦-1M-1NT available (for example you can stay low with strong hands).
- The 1♣ opening isn't defined that well, and opps will probably use their strong ♣ defense against you.

Have you considered Fantunes?

[Adebisi]

Most strong club defences pass with 13+ hands and bid with 3-12, wise thing coz after pos response no need to show where the points are, but after that kind of nonforcing 1C u cant pass with strong hands coz opening is passable as nat 1c opening.
And after any kind of intervention its easyer as opener has bal hand or clubs as main suit.I saw brazilian pair Campos -Villasboas after strong 2c and double neg 2H response had 2NT 22-23 nonforcing, and 2s as nat 5+ suit or 24+ bal.
2c-2d-2s: 2NT any 6 card suit, 3C staymanish, 3d=no 4 or 5M, 3H/S=5M, 3NT 55 c/d
2c-2d-2h-2s-3c: 3D 1 or 2 4card MAJ-s 24+ bal, 3H=5+S/4+H, 3S=5+S, 3NT=no 4card Maj 24+ bal
I dont like 2H as double neg after 2C , coz it makes harder to find 4-4 Maj fits, but that scheme could be used after 2d-2H waiting.

[blackshoe]

You could try Romex:

1m: 3+ cards, 12-18 HCP
1M: 5+ cards, 12-18 HCP
1NT: art, F, either bal 19-20 HCP and 6 controls, or unbal, 18-21 HCP, 5+ and usually 6+ controls, 4-5 losers.
2♣: art, FG, either bal 23-24 HCP and 8 controls or bal 29-30 and 11 controls, or unbal, usually at least 6 controls, 3- losers. Will not include primary diamonds.
2♦: art, F, either bal 21-22 HCP and 7 controls or bal 27-28 HCP and 10 controls or unbal, usually at least 6 controls, 2- loser, primary diamonds, may have a second suit.
2M: weak two
2NT: natural, FG, bal 25-26 HCP, 9 controls
3any: preemptive
3NT: 4 level minor preempt
4m: Namyats
4M: preemptive
4NT: good 5 level minor preempt
5m: bad 5 level minor preempt

You can even keep your strong club, by playing "Romex Forcing Club" when not vul (at MPs) or when favorable (at IMPs):

1♣: art, F, 17+ HCP
1♦: ostensibly natural, NF, 2+ diamonds, 11-16 HCP, no better bid. May have 5 clubs.
1M: 5+ cards, 11-16 HCP
1NT: 10=12 HCP, natural
2C: natural, 6+ clubs, 12-16 HCP
2D: as in Romex above
2♥: "Precision" 2♦, 3 suited, short diamonds, 12-16 HCP
2♠: weak two
2NT: bad 3 level minor preempt
3m: good 3 level minor preempt, defined as a hand that would be happy to see partner bid 3NT
higher bids: as Romex above

Playing the "two card" system, you can play 2NT and 3m as in "Romex Forcing Club" in both systems, and use Kokish after a 1 or 2♣ opening to show the 25-26 balanced hand.

The two systems are well integrated, which reduces memory problems.

In the ACBL, the 2NT and 4NT openings are mid-chart, as is the 2♥ opening in RFC. 2NT requires 6 board segments, the others require only two board segments.

[glen]

I think OP's system is fine, and there is no need to switch instead to Polish, Swedish, Romex, Nightmare, Fantunes, or not mentioned yet, Unassuming.

A couple of small tweaks: limit the 2♣ opening to 14, and have the 1♣ opening be forcing, and include bal 22+, GF ♣s, and GF 4-4-4-1s. 2♦ is a GF with ♠s or a red suit.

[dcrc2]

glen, on 2012-December-30, 12:23, said:

I think OP's system is fine, and there is no need to switch instead to Polish, Swedish, Romex, Nightmare, Fantunes, or not mentioned yet, Unassuming.

A couple of small tweaks: limit the 2♣ opening to 14, and have the 1♣ opening be forcing, and include bal 22+, GF ♣s, and GF 4-4-4-1s. 2♦ is a GF with ♠s or a red suit.

I agree with Glen - it's a decent system, but you might find those tweaks are a good idea. This is the right way to play a weak NT in my opinion. (Well, personally I would prefer to put all game-forcing hands into 1♣, but I don't think that's a particularly important issue.)

If a 2♦ opening shows 5+ in one of spades, hearts or diamonds you can do something like:
2♦ : 2♥
... 2♠ = spades
... 2NT = diamonds
... 3x = natural implying hearts as the main suit (like 2♣:2♦,2♥:2♠,3x if you play Kokish)
and now you are no worse off than pairs who play a standard 2♣ opening.

The 2♣ opening is a bit of a weak spot, obviously. And it's worse than the similar opening in Precision or Polish Club because you don't have any alternative opening bid on hands with a weak club suit. (In Precision you might open 1♦ on a 1435, say, and in Polish you can sometimes choose 1♣ instead.) In particular it's really not that nice to have to open 2♣ on 3415, 4315 or 4405. I'd open all of these 1♣ in Polish (though some Poles might disagree) and with a three-suited bid in Precision. But you're forced to open them 2♣. (Or maybe you intend to open 1♥ on the 4405? Because 2♣ is really horrible there.)

When I played this thing I tried to make 2♣ more manageable by having it promise either six clubs or a sound opening bid. So pass with most 5♣-4M-3-1 12-counts. This made life a little easier, for example you'll never want to play in 2NT after 2♣:2♦,2M.

[Free]

Adebisi, on 2012-December-30, 11:15, said:

Most strong club defences pass with 13+ hands and bid with 3-12

Huh? Maybe at club level...

[Adebisi]

HNY Free 1st.Im from country where Precision is standard, and 2c should be alerted if usual strong, if Precision 11-15 u must not alert.I have played Precision and played against it. So if u have like Kxx,Axxx, AKxxx, x is normal to pass and use your normal defences agaist 1c-1d-whatewer,if there is a positive response to 1C u pass, and u feel happy u didnt bid.Nonvul agaist VUL after strong 1C is for example automatic 1S bid if u have something like xxx,Jxxx, Kxxxx, x promising clubs or reds if u play Suction, and in this vulnerability its common you pass partners new suit bid as pass correct like 2C here after 1C-(1s)-dbl-2c-(pass), even when u have reds but no clubs, so now if the dude who showed for insatance 6-7 after 1s have real problem or if he doubles, opener is in trouble.Of cource to pass pass/ correct bids is not frequent but happens.Shold be.Crash/Suction/Yeslek and so on base on that.But if u invented something new bridgeworld doesnt know or better defences agaist str 1C please let me know, send me private message or post here, im not the only one who who wants new ideas aboat this one.Thanks glen and others for feedback, and no offence towards Free, just natural thoughts.

[Free]

Perhaps you should read the thread about defenses against strong club from about a year ago. Justin makes a great argument why natural intervention is so much better than all sorts of artificial noise. I can't look it up right now, does anyone else have a link?

I've played strong 1C systems for more than a decade, and I must say a random 1S overcall doesn't get me in trouble at all. It's annoying at most, but overcaller's partner can't do anything. I've also played lots of funny systems against other precision pairs. This works against average club players, but against good pairs you give away too much information and it doesn't work.

You claim you live in a country where Precision is standard. That's great, but it doesn't mean that the defense against a strong 1C opening is perfect. I live in a country where multi is pretty standard, but almost nobody knows how to defend well against it. Sure, 75% of the time they get away with it or end up in a decent spot, but in the other 25% they simply screw up.

A few days ago I overcalled opps 1C opening with a natural 2D holding Q9xx-x-A9xxxx-xx. LHO doubled showing a semi positive hand, and it got passed out. Trumps were 0-4, but I made it for +180. If I had to overcall something artificial or 1S canapé, opps would've had two chances to get to a better spot. There are many more examples like this, but I can't recall any stories against good opposition where our artificial noise made a big difference.

[Adebisi]

My point was to intervene against 1C very agressivly and pass 1st with good hands.So if u have nv vs v xxx,x,Axxxxx, xxx u should overcall 2d if natural or 2C showing diamonds or majors playing suction.I have nothing against natural overcalls against 1c and i cant claim that artificial methods are better, right thing is to be agressive but not stupidly:).One very bad spot is when u open 1c, LHO bids 1 level crash or suction or whatever, responder has semipositive hand 6-7 and doubles, and now RHO jumps 2s/3 minor or something as pass/correct, its annoying.

[helene_t]

Free, on 2013-January-02, 02:31, said:

Perhaps you should read the thread about defenses against strong club from about a year ago. Justin makes a great argument why natural intervention is so much better than all sorts of artificial noise. I can't look it up right now, does anyone else have a link?

Probably you are thinking of this thread:
http://www.bridgebas...ms/page__st__61

[Zelandakh]

Getting back to the OP, if you have a system in mind it is always worth comparing it to the most similar natural method, here a 5542 weak NT system with an unbalanced diamond is comparable. If you go through opening by opening you can see that you are equal on 1♦, 1♥ and 1♠ openings; very slightly worse off with 1NT (the 4414 hand); and significantly worse off after a 2♣ or 2♦ opening. You are also worse off on the hands where the natural system would have opened 2♦, with a weak 2 for example. All of these negatives have to be made up for by the increased definition of the 1♣ opening. I am highly skeptical if this is possible. Indeed, it seems like an obvious change here would be to move the 5♣4M hands down to the 1♣ opening in AUC style. As an aside, my own choice of method has openings of

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
1♦ = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
1M = 10-17, 5+, unbal
1NT = (11)12-14 bal or 4414
2♣ = 10-14, 6+ clubs or 5♣4M

which also has certain comparisons with your proposal. The main difference is that the strong hands are put through 1♣ rather than using 2♦ for this. Not only does this make these hands easier to bid, there are also advantages to be had with the limited 1♦♥♠ openings. Before you reject the idea of putting your GF hands through 1♣, you might consider that there is some excellent harmony to be had here. For example, after a positive response you can play a step rebid as a relay showing the strong hand and other bids to describe the weaker (15-17) hands. You basically lose nothing and gain greatly when Opener has a big hand and Responder a GF opposite 15. Even after a negative, there is plenty of space. And competition is easier than in Precision too; you usually just pass with 15-17 and bid with a better hand.

I can understand if you do not like Nightmare. It is a complex system despite the claims to be "natural". But you should be aware that there are other ways of constructing a system from the "15+ nat/bal or strong" base. Some of these build heavily on more traditional strong club methods (mine is a variation of Symmetric Relay) and may well suit you better. If you decide to stick with the system in the OP then I definitely think it needs changes. Primarily, you need at least one extra hand type in the 1♣ opening. Whether that be the weak 5♣4M hands or some strong hands, or both, is something of a matter of taste. It might also depend on the amount of work you are willing to put into follow-ups too.

Finally, there have been many threads on defences to strong club systems. If anyone on BBF has created something new then it is surely already posted in one of these. More likely, a "new" defence will simply be a combination of two or more existing methods. Pretty much everything that can be done has been tried at this point. probably the most interesting "recent" development has been "psycho multi" overcalls, for example 2♥ showing hearts or spades with different (weak) ranges. Again, you can read all about these and much much more by running a search (Google using the domain http://www.bridgebas...m/forums/topic/ works best).

[borag]

Hi, this is something that I tried in the past and was great

1♣ = 15-19 hp balanced 2+♣ / 15+ hp unbalanced 4+♣ / 22+ hp balanced 5M ok (forsing 1+)
1♦ = 10+ hp unbalanced 4+♦ (forsing 1+)
1♥ = 10-21 hp 5+♥
1♠ = 10-21 hp 5+♠
1NT = 11-14 hp bal 5M/5c(43)M1d/4441 ok
2♣ = 10-14 hp 6+♣ / 5♣-4M-3♦ / 5♣-44M
2♦ = weak / strong major
2♥ = weak majors
2♠ = weak spade + minor
2NT = 20-21 hp balanced 5M ok

the main difference from nightmare is to seperate strong hands into 4
1♣ = might have strong ♣ / balanced
1♦ = might have strong ♦
2♦ = might have strong major

it works