[spiralscan]

The other day in an tournament with an unknown partner rated to be a "world class player" The two opponents are beginners. I opened 1♣ holding the following hand:

♠KJ ♥KQ82 ♦97 ♣KQJT

LHO overcalled 1♦ and partner now bid 1♥, RHO raised to 2♦. I liked the 1♥ bid a lot and upgraded my hand to 3♥. LHO now bids 3♠ and my partner doubles and the bid is of course pulled to diamonds. I now bid 4♥ and rho doubles. I liked my chances at 4h and felt anything they bid could go for a telephone number so redoubled. LHO now bid 5d, partner doubled and RHO xx'd!!!!

Too much doubling and redoubling going on don't you think??

It turned out that my partner psyched the 1♥ bid.

My question is this? How ethical is it to double for lead direction AND for penalties AFTER making a psyche. For the record 5♦ did go down and we don't have anything. The full deal:

Scoring: MP

---

[arrows]

What you partner did is perfectly okey if he had no unauthorized information of
any kind.

[spiralscan]

♦OK let's turn this around a bit. I'm thinking that this person basically gave me unuthorized information. He gave me a lead directing double which told me to lead spades. So what happened? I got in and dropped the King of spades from my KJ holding during the play, - would I have done this without a lead directing double? I seriously doubt it.

I don't have a problem with psyches and in fact am inclined to make them myself when the timing is right. I realize they have inherant risks and here on BBO at least you can be subject to a lot of discontent by the masses for making one.

However all that aside, at what point does a psyche actually damage the opps because someone took advantage? This example to me is an example where I inadvertently got UI. On the other hand - should I just ignore the UI i got and let 5
♦ make?

How can this be handled - obviously td's are not equipped to deal with matters like this.

[luke warm]

i'm confused... what ui did you get that was unavailable to the ops?

[hrothgar]

spiralscan, on Dec 11 2004, 11:18 PM, said:

My question is this? How ethical is it to double for lead direction AND for penalties AFTER making a psyche. For the record 5♦ did go down and we don't have anything. The full deal:

Do you have any cause to beleive that you and partner have a concealed partnership understanding? If not"

The psyche is perfectly legal
The lead directing double is perfectly legal
the penalty double is perfectly legal

Quite frankly, the post confuses me...

[nilbes]

hello,

I dont think that there is an ethic problem here...psychic bids can never be an ethical issue its part of the game

what actually bothered me was that a world class player used it in a bid against opponents who were beginners

Let him psyche against world class players.......

It's simply not fair against beginners who want to learn and improve their skills

One shouldnt forget that everyone was a beginner too and how one feels when a stunt like that was pulled against you catching you unaware............

[hrothgar]

nilbes, on Dec 12 2004, 04:54 AM, said:

hello,

I dont think that there is an ethic problem here...psychic bids can never be an ethical issue its part of the game

what actually bothered me was that a world class player used it in a bid against opponents who were beginners

Let him psyche against world class players.......

It's simply not fair against beginners who want to learn and improve their skills

One shouldnt forget that everyone was a beginner too and how one feels when a stunt like that was pulled against you catching you unaware............

Funny, I'd think that detecting psyches is one of the skills that all players need to develop

"protecting" beginners against psyches

A. Is patronizing
B. Perpetuates a deliberate stereotype that psyches are unethical

[myfish]

hi,
the beginner want to join the tornament because they want to learn more....
why not give them a valuable chance to bid against psych(which they may face it later)?
If the beginner is not ready....just stay in the main room and don't play tornament(except BIL's)

P.S i don't think it is odds on for bidding a psych against a beginner

[nickf]

Jlall said:

huh?

Well put.
I couldnt have expressed my feelings better.

nickf
sydney

[EricK]

spiralscan, on Dec 11 2004, 09:54 PM, said:

♦OK let's turn this around a bit. I'm thinking that this person basically gave me unuthorized information. He gave me a lead directing double which told me to lead spades. So what happened? I got in and dropped the King of spades from my KJ holding during the play, - would I have done this without a lead directing double? I seriously doubt it.

I don't have a problem with psyches and in fact am inclined to make them myself when the timing is right. I realize they have inherant risks and here on BBO at least you can be subject to a lot of discontent by the masses for making one.

However all that aside, at what point does a psyche actually damage the opps because someone took advantage? This example to me is an example where I inadvertently got UI. On the other hand - should I just ignore the UI i got and let 5
♦ make?

How can this be handled - obviously td's are not equipped to deal with matters like this.

The lead directing double is authorised information. Anything which you deduce simply from partner's bids rather than his mannerisms etc is authorised.

At the stage he made the double you thought he had what you thought he had shown i.e a heart suit but a hand which wanted a ♠ lead. You continued to bid (and defend) as though that is what he had.

Nothing unethical happened at all.

Eric

[PriorKnowledge]

Unethical is too strong a word. I think you mean "poor sportsmanship."

You recieved no UI. You may use any information you glean from the auction, your bridge knowledge, and your hand. For example, suppose you hold 12hcp, LHO opens 1N, your partner makes a penalty dbl and RHO bids 2C, which the opps play shows 8+hcp. From the bidding and your hand, you know LHO psyched the 1N (or partner psyched the dbl). You may use that information.

In this case, I consider World Class players psyching against beginners in a tournament both unsporting and poor bridge. Experts can expect to beat this pair easily with normal bridge. If you psyche, you give them a chance to beat you.

[luke warm]

PriorKnowledge, on Dec 12 2004, 05:28 PM, said:

Experts can expect to beat this pair easily with normal bridge. If you psyche, you give them a chance to beat you.

if that's true, it would be sporting wouldn't it? it may be bad bridge, but certainly anything that gives the ops a chance to win can't be deemed 'unsporting'

[pclayton]

I don't think psyching against beginners is unethical, but its not MY style.

[inquiry]

Your partner's psyche got you into a lot of hot water (4♥x when they can make a thing).. so he risked a huge minus against a weak pair. Now, he probably thinks he was "cherry picking" his opponents, but he was lucky this wasn't a disaster for you. Down two is easy, and he can easily find ways to go down more.

I agree with phil. To psyche against beginners may be clever bridge, but it really isn't sporting.

Ben

[Free]

Psych??? What psych??? That 1♥ bid??? That's just creative bidding, come on!

Btw, you didn't get any UI because of the creative bid, only because opps kept bidding. So what's the problem anyway?

[the hog]

"The other day in an tournament with an unknown partner rated to be a "world class player""

Rather than a world class player, I would suggest you were playing with a beginner. This is a very silly psyche, (hardly "creative bidding"), and one which stands to gain practically nothing and risks a great deal. It is typical of a weak player who is trying to operate.

Your pd has the boss suit; he has no idea at this stage who own the hand and for all he knows you may have a big hand and a H suit. How is he going to get out of that situation. There is no ui and nothing untoward involved; the only ui or perhaps that should be authorised information, is that your partner has a long way to go before he lives up to his self rating.