[jillybean]

I have some questions,

1. What does a "8.5 trick" 2C opening look like?

2. What does 2C 2x 4M show?

[aguahombre]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-17, 20:02, said:

I have some questions,

1. What does a "8.5 trick" 2C opening look like?

2. What does 2C 2x 4M show?

For us, neither exists.

[straube]

 blackshoe, on 2012-December-17, 16:38, said:

The threshold of "strong" in opening 2♣ is whatever the player making the bid thinks it is — at least until some director somewhere decides he "psyched". The threshold of "strong" when opening 1♣ (artificial, forcing) is fifteen HCPs. Apples and oranges.

That's what the rule is (I said the same), but the rule is poor because it is subject to so much interpretation. Strong is whatever the player thinks it is until the director rules otherwise? I once had a hand AK AKxxxxxx x xx that I opened 2C. The opponents were miffed because they had a good spade sacrifice and called the director. If 2C had to have the same point requirement as 1C, then I would have a simple defense to this opening. "My partner expects 15. I'm within 2 of this and obviously didn't intend a psyche." This rule would keep folks honest and also would allow a little leeway. The problem with this hand is that I pretty much have game in my hand, but it's too strong for even a Namyats opening. I expect expert practice is to open 1H, but occasionally (rarely) they will play there.

[aguahombre]

 straube, on 2012-December-17, 23:08, said:

The problem with this hand is that I pretty much have game in my hand, but it's too strong for even a Namyats opening. I expect expert practice is to open 1H, but occasionally (rarely) they will play there.

Referring to AK AKXXXXXX X XX......someone would have to be very, very petty to challenge a 2C opening with that. We write 22+ or 9+ tricks for major/ 10+ tricks for a minor. I don't believe anyone has ever read it.

[blackshoe]

Yes the rule is poor. More than poor - it's ridiculous. Also, if a player opens 2♣ because in his opinion his hand is "strong", any director who rules he has psyched does not understand what a psych is.

Personally, I think 15 is too low for a 2♣ opening.

[helene_t]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-16, 21:03, said:

I would hate to open 1♥ and hear the opps come in with 5m.

Yes but wouldn't you hate just as much to open 2♣ and hear opps bidding 5m before your second turn?

[Mbodell]

I had a partner at a NABC side regional team event who had AKQ-nineth of diamonds and out. He opened 2♣ and raised my 2♦ response to 5♦ and it was a good sac opposite the opponents making 4M (I think they make 5 but not 6). The director was called. We were not an established partnership and we did have "or dist" or something similar in the 2♣ section. The director grumbled a little, asked my partner a question (partner answered I had 9 tricks in my hand, 9 tricks is strong), said he'd consider it, and came back and let the results stand. As others have said, it is bad bridge, but it is legal in the ACBL as long as he did it because he thought he was strong, not if he did it because he wanted to preempt the opponents.

[Antrax]

Not sure what he gains by opening 2♣ and not 5♦, unless he wanted you to declare?

[Mbodell]

 Antrax, on 2012-December-18, 05:56, said:

Not sure what he gains by opening 2♣ and not 5♦, unless he wanted you to declare?

If he's doing it for preemption (instead of for strong), which I suspect played into his decision, the opponents don't get the joke until the 5 level. And when his dummy comes down it can also tilt the opponents. Maybe not the most sporting of motivations. To be more charitable, it is possible partner just thought it was fun to bid that way and put down that hand as dummy.

[Zelandakh]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-17, 20:02, said:

1. What does a "8.5 trick" 2C opening look like?
2. What does 2C 2x 4M show?

1. How about KQJTxx/AK/AQx/xx or AKJxxx/AQx/AQx/x?
2. It depends. One decent option is to play this as RKCB for the major with a self-supporting suit. Another idea is to play it as a Namyats hand, a solid suit with nothing outside or a semi-solid suit with an outside ace. Or you can just play it as a self-supporting suit missing 4 cover cards. Or it can be unlimited in strength and demand the cue bid of a side ace. In any case, you need to decide on the difference between a direct 4M and 3M followed by 4M, whether that be suit quality or strength or something else.

[mycroft]

I play "8.5 tricks *with defence* - which for us is 4 defensive tricks. I'm willing to consider AK-to-7 (even AK-to-8) 2 defensive tricks to make my 4, even though I know that it's likely not.

so AJTxxxxx Ax KQ A (but probably not with spades) looks about right. And yes, that's 2♣ then game. 2♣ then 3M/4m is the same hand with one less ace and AKQJxxx or AKQxxxxx.

Thanks MikeH, et al, for making explicit what I was saying about "as long as you play in games where 2♣ means 'our auction, stay out', you're good".

[pigpenz]

 mycroft, on 2012-December-18, 11:17, said:

I play "8.5 tricks *with defence* - which for us is 4 defensive tricks. I'm willing to consider AK-to-7 (even AK-to-8) 2 defensive tricks to make my 4, even though I know that it's likely not.

so AJTxxxxx Ax KQ A (but probably not with spades) looks about right. And yes, that's 2♣ then game. 2♣ then 3M/4m is the same hand with one less ace and AKQJxxx or AKQxxxxx.

Thanks MikeH, et al, for making explicit what I was saying about "as long as you play in games where 2♣ means 'our auction, stay out', you're good".

I have played with people when they open two clubs you are allowed to pass their
2h 2s 3c 3d responses to 2d

[steve2005]

Yes is ok open 2♣ has at least 8.5 tricks. but why? could have only 1 defensive trick with AK♥ easily be opposite avoid by opposition.
what do you do if opponent bid 4♠/5 of a minor, possibly even before you have a chance to bid 4♥?
partner is goona double on wrong hands expecting you to have some defense.

opening 1♥ wont miss a game, if partner cant bid you wont make game on almost any hand he could have.

4♣ as a strong ♥ would describe your hand, depending on how you define it, if you play it.

[Siegmund]

I have often wondered what 8 1/2 trick hands get opened by the people who write that on their convention cards.

My card says 22+ or 9+, and if his hand had HQ instead of HJ, I would think 2C-then-4H was the obvious way to show it. The posted hand I might have been content with 1H-then-4H.

Far as I am aware, "9-trick preempt" is the standard meaning of 2C-then-4H. It is in some, but not all, of the basic bidding textbooks. I'd have to look on my shelf to see which ones.

I have never seen anyone say that they impose a specific defensive minimum requirement on their 2C openings, though I often see people say in threads like this one that they don't think a hand has enough defense for it.
Of course, the old idea that 1-bids ought to usually have 2 defensive tricks seems not to be popular these days either.

[jillybean]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-17, 20:02, said:

I have some questions,

1. What does a "8.5 trick" 2C opening look like?

2. What does 2C 2x 4M show?

 aguahombre, on 2012-December-17, 21:17, said:

For us, neither exists.

 Siegmund, on 2012-December-18, 20:49, said:

I have often wondered what 8 1/2 trick hands get opened by the people who write that on their convention cards.

I can't remember just when I added "or 8.5 tricks" to my 2C openings on the CC but it was some time ago. I've never really
understood, have asked about it but never felt comfortable pushing for a full explanation because even the mediocre players at the
club have it on their CC. Now I can happily remove it and add NAMYATS
Thanks all

[rhm]

 Mbodell, on 2012-December-16, 18:45, said:

Is it really a good idea compared to opening 1♥ with this hand? You even have 3♠ so opponents are less likely to sacrifice in spades over hearts.

Consider partner with KQx xxx Axx xxxx and partner with xxx xxx Axx KQxx how will he know which hand is good over your 2♣...4♥ sequence?

True, but how does a 1♥ opening or NAMYATS for that matter help responder to judge better?

Rainer Herrmann

[hrothgar]

 rhm, on 2012-December-19, 07:57, said:

True, but how does a 1♥ opening or NAMYATS for that matter help responder to judge better?

Rainer Herrmann

NAMYATS openings tend to be very well defined.

[kenberg]

 pigpenz, on 2012-December-18, 13:09, said:

I have played with people when they open two clubs you are allowed to pass their
2h 2s 3c 3d responses to 2d

I once played against the auction 2♣-2♦-2♥- Pass. I turned to the 2♣ opener and asked if they played that as a second negative. She said that she thought so but wasn't sure.

[jillybean]

 jillybean, on 2012-December-19, 00:41, said:

I can't remember just when I added "or 8.5 tricks" to my 2C openings on the CC but it was some time ago. I've never really
understood, have asked about it but never felt comfortable pushing for a full explanation because even the mediocre players at the
club have it on their CC. Now I can happily remove it and add NAMYATS

And remove that awful gambling 3N now that 3N becomes our 4m preempt.

[pigpenz]

 kenberg, on 2012-December-19, 09:25, said:

I once played against the auction 2♣-2♦-2♥- Pass. I turned to the 2♣ opener and asked if they played that as a second negative. She said that she thought so but wasn't sure.

they way they played their positive responses it showed five card suit and points, 5+hcp
so 2♦ was negative
the main problem with their openings was if they were two suited but those type of hands shouldnt really
open two clubs even though alot of weak players do