[Kungsgeten]

In my current limited opening bid system we use 2NT as 5-5 minors with 15-17 points. Due to regulations we need 2NT to be either strong, natural or game forcing (GF is not by definition the same as strong). I do not like 2NT as 15-17 minors that much, since it doesn't appear very often and we start relays with 3♥, so we get quite high right away if slam interested. I thought about defining it as 15-17 with 5-5 majors instead, since 3♣ can be the relay. Another alternative (which is used in the system our system has derived from) is to use 2NT as natural and weak (9-11 bal without a 4 card major), but I do not think this is for us.

I had some ideas about playing 2NT as a game force with an "extreme" hand. Lots of offensive potential, but not that strong considering hcp. At the right vulnerability it could also be more preemptive (but still game forcing). 2NT could include a hand wanting to play game in either minor, or perhaps two suited (6-6 or similar) with a major and a minor, or perhaps a one-suiter wanting to play the suit but is "too good" to open 4M/5m (Namyats style perhaps). These extreme hands with low hcp but great playing strength is hard to tell partner about; you might have to pass or show more/less values than you have (which makes partner double the opponent's "sacrifice", which might make since you do not have much defensive values).

The bad thing is ofcourse that the opponents know about your hand too, so they may find an easy sacrifice.

[Zelandakh]

You might considering looking at inquiry's MisIry method which has some of the components you are talking about. It sounds like you would lose the club preempt aspect of the 2NT opening due to system regs but that the rest could be incorporated.

More generally, I assume it would not be possible simply to exchange the 15-17 minors hand with the balanced 20/21/22 hand and play it naturally?

[32519]

Kungsgeten, on 2012-December-10, 07:09, said:

In my current limited opening bid system we use 2NT as 5-5 minors with 15-17 points. Due to regulations we need 2NT to be either strong, natural or game forcing (GF is not by definition the same as strong). I do not like 2NT as 15-17 minors that much, since it doesn't appear very often and we start relays with 3♥, so we get quite high right away if slam interested.

I thought about defining it as 15-17 with 5-5 majors instead, since 3♣ can be the relay.

Another alternative (which is used in the system our system has derived from) is to use 2NT as natural and weak (9-11 bal without a 4 card major), but I do not think this is for us.

The Blue Team Club used 2NT to show 5/5 in the majors and 8-12 HCP. I set up a teaching table on BBO to test the effectiveness of the continuation bidding structure. It's actually very effective. Sure you get some bad results on hopelessly misfitting hands. But that's bridge, you win some and you lose some.

The biggest objection I have thus far seen to this opening bid style is this: "Why pre-empt your own side when you hold both majors?"
The answer contains 3 legs -
1. With 5/5 in the majors it is normal to open the bidding with 1♠ and then repeat the ♥ suit twice to show the 5/5 holding. So you end up on level 3 anyway.
2. At all costs you want to prevent partner from bidding 3NT when your hand is low in HCP.
3. Advertising both majors with your first bid, effectively you are showing the opponents the middle finger, relegating them to compete or sacrifice in the minors.

Partner and I use it and thus far we have had no bad results. On the negative side, the bid seldom occurs, so you may be better off using the 2NT bid for something else which occurs more frequently.

[Kungsgeten]

Zelandakh, on 2012-December-10, 07:16, said:

More generally, I assume it would not be possible simply to exchange the 15-17 minors hand with the balanced 20/21/22 hand and play it naturally?

Well yes, we could play 2NT as natural and strong. I do not however see much of a reason for doing so. Right now we can show a balanced hand with 8-23 hcp at the 1-level (8-11, 12-14, 15-17, 18-20, 21-23) and 24-29 at the 2-level (24-25, 26-27, 28-29).

We play a relay system, and with 5-5 majors we usually end up bidding 2NT anyway, so playing 2NT as 5-5 majors and 15-17 would just be a way of unloading our pass (0-7 or 17+) and 1C (12-16 unbal or 15-17 bal) openings a bit.

[Zelandakh]

Now I am extremely confused. You play under system regs that disallow any weak meanings for a 2NT opening but do allow a Forcing Pass? It is going to be difficult to make sensible suggestions without knowing more about the system in play. You are almost certainly in a better position to know what might work than anyone here to be honest. All that others can do is suggest possibilities (such as MisIry) and hope something fits.

[Kungsgeten]

No, no. Weak 2NT openings are not disallowed. In the regulations a system's opening bids may have a total sum of "dots". Each bid is assigned a number of "dots" depending on the meaning of the bid. The principle is that bids that are hard to defend against should have a higher number of dots. At the lowest regulation level 7 dots are allowed, and our system already use 7 dots. This means that we can not add a 2NT opening which has dots. For a 2NT opening to not have any dots it needs to be either natural (a balanced hand with any strength), strong (at least 15 hcp) or game forcing.

The topic was about if you'd think the 2NT GF extreme distribution would be playable. Perhaps I should've been more clear about that. MisIry seems interesting and is similar to my idea.

The system in play is:

pass - 0-7 hcp / 17+ hcp unbal / 18+ hcp balanced
1C - 12-16 hcp any unbal / 15-17 hcp balanced
1D - 8-11 hcp, 4+H (not 4432 or 4333), may have longer minor
1H - 8-11 hcp, 4+S (not 4432 or 4333), may have longer minor
1S - 8-11 hcp balanced (no 5 card major)
1NT - 12-14 hcp balanced
2C - 8-11 hcp, 6+ clubs or 5 clubs and 4+ diamonds, denies 4 card major
2D - 8-11 hcp, 6+ diamonds or 5 diamonds and 4 clubs, denies 4 card major
2M - 8-11 hcp, 5 cards in the major and a 5+ minor
2NT - ???
3X+ - Preemptive

[mattias]

Kungsgeten, on 2012-December-10, 08:45, said:

No, no. Weak 2NT openings are not disallowed. In the regulations a system's opening bids may have a total sum of "dots". Each bid is assigned a number of "dots" depending on the meaning of the bid. The principle is that bids that are hard to defend against should have a higher number of dots. At the lowest regulation level 7 dots are allowed, and our system already use 7 dots. This means that we can not add a 2NT opening which has dots. For a 2NT opening to not have any dots it needs to be either natural (a balanced hand with any strength), strong (at least 15 hcp) or game forcing.

The topic was about if you'd think the 2NT GF extreme distribution would be playable. Perhaps I should've been more clear about that. MisIry seems interesting and is similar to my idea.

The system in play is:

pass - 0-7 hcp / 17+ hcp unbal / 18+ hcp balanced
1C - 12-16 hcp any unbal / 15-17 hcp balanced
1D - 8-11 hcp, 4+H (not 4432 or 4333), may have longer minor
1H - 8-11 hcp, 4+S (not 4432 or 4333), may have longer minor
1S - 8-11 hcp balanced (no 5 card major)
1NT - 12-14 hcp balanced
2C - 8-11 hcp, 6+ clubs or 5 clubs and 4+ diamonds, denies 4 card major
2D - 8-11 hcp, 6+ diamonds or 5 diamonds and 4 clubs, denies 4 card major
2M - 8-11 hcp, 5 cards in the major and a 5+ minor
2NT - ???
3X+ - Preemptive

You could move the balanced hands around and get
1C as 12-16 balanced or 12-14 balanced,
1S 15-17 balanced
1NT 8-11 balanced
to get rid of the dots on 1S. But then you wouldn't be able to upgrade good 14s, and it might screw with your responses to pass.

[Kungsgeten]

mattias, on 2012-December-11, 07:14, said:

You could move the balanced hands around and get
1C as 12-16 balanced or 12-14 balanced,
1S 15-17 balanced
1NT 8-11 balanced
to get rid of the dots on 1S. But then you wouldn't be able to upgrade good 14s, and it might screw with your responses to pass.

Yes, true! However we like the preempting effect of opening 1♠ and 1NT with (sub)minimum balanced hands. Putting 8-11 in 1♠ also makes it less dangerous than 1NT (its easier to run if they double and 1♠ may be passed with weak cards, preparing to run (or stand) if doubled). Thanks for the ideas though!