[the hog]

mike777, on Dec 9 2004, 11:51 AM, said:

I think these posts are off topic...

The question was should 5224 with a 5 card major and 4 card minor be opened all the time or almost always with 1nt...not 5332 hands or hands with just hcp in short suits.

So? Threads often morph.

[civill]

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How about this hand in natural based system?

[nikos59]

To Ron:

My humble opinion is that *you* are way off the mark
when you say merely that
"opening 1N with balanced hands makes for far easier auctions"
while omitting the all-important second part of the
sentence:
"provided you are able and willing to invest the time and effort needed
to integrate in your system all the devices that become
necessary"

The Italians may very well (I dont know, but I happily take
your word) open 1NT with 5M332, but surely they have
a lot of checks and balances. Does the average player?

In my humble opinion, it makes for far easier auctions
if you know that 1NT can never ever have a 5card major.
The unsuitable 5M332's are such a tiny minority (1% of
hands?) that it just do not pay to dilute your system
to cater for the 1%. Bridge is a game of odds. I prefer
to aim the 99% of the cases.

I may very well be wrong, but I need to see some proofs.

Nikos

[the hog]

""opening 1N with balanced hands makes for far easier auctions"
while omitting the all-important second part of the
sentence:
"provided you are able and willing to invest the time and effort needed
to integrate in your system all the devices that become
necessary"

Nikos your above comment goes without saying. I direct my comments to those that I think are prepared to invest time and effort, else i can't be bothered. I have seen your posts on rgb and know you are not a schlemiel.

Incidentally I DO believe opening all 5332 shapes with 1N makes constructive bidding far easier, even for beginners; and "yes" do take my word for it, I have played against B&D and L&V though not F&N, and they ALL open 1N with balanced hands.

[whereagles]

If the alternatives are not attractive, I have absolutely no problem of opening 1NT on shapes as 5422, 5M332, 4441, 5M422 or (shock horror) 5431. Usually the singleton will be AKQ, but even that isn't iron-cast

In one of my last tournaments I held, as dealer and NV,

♠ Kxxxx
♥ xx
♦ KQxx
♣ xx

I could open this with a weak 2♠, but with such a broken suit I preferred a 9-11 NT. Ok, so I only have 8... Big deal

[Free]

Whereagles, THAT is not a hand to bid 1NT with imo. Not because of you lying a HCP (you devil ), but because you have ♠s. If it were ♥s, I'd probably agree with the 1NT opener, now I think it's a bad idea

[whereagles]

I agree I would prefer to have hearts instead. But look at the alternatives to 1NT: a 2♠ on a junk suit or a tame pass. I consider 1NT the lesser evil.

1NT is one of the best openings of bridge. It gives the opening side a superb tactical advantage. It says a lot to partner, who immediately knows what level we belong and frequently what strain, and forces opps to bid at the 2-level. This is why I try and open 1NT as often as possible

[nikos59]

I believe the main reason people are nowadays
going out of their way to open
1NT as often as possible, not only with
5 card majors or six card minors, but also with singletons,
with one or two points less than the alleged
range (pard, I upgraded the hand, don't you
see this 10-spot?), with one point more than
the alleged range (with 2 points more, they open
2NT), is simpler, albeit unavowable:

They want to play the hand themselves.

You see, with the current arsenal of transfers, whoever
opens 1NT has overwhelming chances to
declare.

n

[Free]

nikos59, on Dec 9 2004, 02:48 PM, said:

I believe the main reason people are nowadays
going out of their way to open
1NT as often as possible, not only with
5 card majors or six card minors, but also with singletons,
with one or two points less than the alleged
range (pard, I upgraded the hand, don't you
see this 10-spot?), with one point more than
the alleged range (with 2 points more, they open
2NT), is simpler, albeit unavowable:

They want to play the hand themselves.

You see, with the current arsenal of transfers, whoever
opens 1NT has overwhelming chances to
declare.

n

What a load of RUBISH!

The main reason is the preemptive effect! A few weeks ago I was sitting in 3rd seat NV vs V, and I opened 1NT with 14HCP and a 5 card ♥ (playing 15-17 any balanced hand). Result: I got to play that -3, since they couldn't show strong hands due to their conventional interventions, and they couldn't find their 4-4♠ fit! Partner had only 1HCP. The other table found an easy 4♠ after a silly 1♥ opening.

Maybe some people bid to play themselves, but these won't be the bridge players you want to learn anything from... I don't think many of the posters here are so selfcentred like these silly people who won't let their partner play.

[pclayton]

Free, on Dec 9 2004, 08:26 AM, said:

nikos59, on Dec 9 2004, 02:48 PM, said:

I believe the main reason people are nowadays
going out of their way to open
1NT as often as possible, not only with
5 card majors or six card minors, but also with singletons,
with one or two points less than the alleged
range (pard, I upgraded the hand, don't you
see this 10-spot?), with one point more than
the alleged range (with 2 points more, they open
2NT), is simpler, albeit unavowable:

They want to play the hand themselves.

You see, with the current arsenal of transfers, whoever
opens 1NT has overwhelming chances to
declare.

n

What a load of RUBISH!

The main reason is the preemptive effect! A few weeks ago I was sitting in 3rd seat NV vs V, and I opened 1NT with 14HCP and a 5 card ♥ (playing 15-17 any balanced hand). Result: I got to play that -3, since they couldn't show strong hands due to their conventional interventions, and they couldn't find their 4-4♠ fit! Partner had only 1HCP. The other table found an easy 4♠ after a silly 1♥ opening.

Maybe some people bid to play themselves, but these won't be the bridge players you want to learn anything from... I don't think many of the posters here are so selfcentred like these silly people who won't let their partner play.

Unless we're being hired by someone

[EarlPurple]

maybe because we don't trust them to play them? Maybe because when I'm playing in a BBO Indy and finally get dealt a decent hand, I hope to declare it. If I open 1♦ with

KJxx
QJxx
AKx
xx

what will partner's response be? 1♥? 1♠? 1NT. And I'll have to raise him, then sit back and watch him misplay it.

Much easier to steal a point and open 1NT.

[nikos59]

To Free:
Your overreaction shows two things,
1) You can't spell
2) You are shouting probably because my remark hit home

Moreover, what you did the other day, 3rd to speak and NV/V
is irrelevant: at 3rd position and fav it is well known that many
opening bids show exactly 13 cards.

nikos

[han]

Not that I'm not enjoying the discussion, but it has gone in a rather different angle than I was hoping for. Let me try to swing the discussion back to 5-2-4-2 hands.

Some advantages of opening 1NT with 15-17 hands with 2-5-3-3 patterns are obvious:

If you open 1H with these hands then you have to rebid a 3-card minor, which is a bit ugly.

Many people play that the auction 1H/S-1NT-2C/D shows only three cards. This seems unavoidable when playing a forcing 1NT response. If you play a 14-16 notrump, a semi-forcing 1NT reponse to a major and open 1NT with all balanced hands then you can almost completely solve this problem by passing the balanced 11-13 HCP hands after partner responds 1NT.

But what's the advantage of opening a suitable 2-5-2-4 pattern with 1NT? The 4-card suit takes care of a good rebid in the above auctions. However, it will often be hard to describe your strength, and you have a nasty guess in almost any auction where partner shows 6-10 HCP. Opening 1NT saves you this guess.

I suspect that there are more advantages.. anybody?

[EricK]

Hannie, on Dec 9 2004, 08:07 PM, said:

Not that I'm not enjoying the discussion, but it has gone in a rather different angle than I was hoping for. Let me try to swing the discussion back to 5-2-4-2 hands.

Some advantages of opening 1NT with 15-17 hands with 2-5-3-3 patterns are obvious:

If you open 1H with these hands then you have to rebid a 3-card minor, which is a bit ugly.

Many people play that the auction 1H/S-1NT-2C/D shows only three cards. This seems unavoidable when playing a forcing 1NT response. If you play a 14-16 notrump, a semi-forcing 1NT reponse to a major and open 1NT with all balanced hands then you can almost completely solve this problem by passing the balanced 11-13 HCP hands after partner responds 1NT.

But what's the advantage of opening a suitable 2-5-2-4 pattern with 1NT? The 4-card suit takes care of a good rebid in the above auctions. However, it will often be hard to describe your strength, and you have a nasty guess in almost any auction where partner shows 6-10 HCP. Opening 1NT saves you this guess.

I suspect that there are more advantages.. anybody?

Assume you have a 2-5-4-2 hand and partner has less than invitational values.

The sort of hands where opening 1NT are better are:

Where partner has a non-descript hand with exactly 2♥ as you will often play in 2♥ instead of 1NT

Where partner has 4♠ and 6♣ as after 1♥ 1♠ 2♦ partner will be stuck for a bid.

Where partner has a subminimum hand with 6♠ as he will pass 1♥ but transfer to 2♠ over 1NT.

If you feel that you have an invitational hand after 1♥ 2♥, you may end up in 3♥ down 1 instead of 1NT making

There are also gains when partner has a stronger hand. eg:

If the bidding starts 1NT 3NT (or even 1NT 6NT) you will have given away much less information than after almost any auction beginning 1♥, and you will probably have right-sided the contract.

If partner has a strong 2-suiter he will be able to show his hand much better after a 1NT opening.

They may well be other advantages but these are the first few that occurred to me!

Eric

[Chamaco]

The_Hog, on Dec 9 2004, 01:45 AM, said:

Nikos I think you are way off the mark here. Modern bidding theory suggests that opening 1N with balanced hands makes for far easier auctions. The Italians have been doing this for some time now. B&D open NTs with 5332 M hands, as do Lauria Versace. A "garbage 11-14 NT including all balanced hands is also part of Buratti and Lanzarotti's Nightmare system.

To reinforce Ron's point, I should add that even the "Fantunes" go as far as opening *weak* NT with a 5 card major and, judging from the results, they do not seem to suffer too much damage from it....
So I guess that used with judgment, NT opening with 5cM cannot be that bad as long as both pards are on the same wavelength...

[inquiry]

I open 1NT, with this 5-4 despite easy rebid after 1♥ any bid - 2♦

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[Free]

nikos59, on Dec 9 2004, 08:39 PM, said:

To Free:
Your overreaction shows two things,
1) You can't spell
2) You are shouting probably because my remark hit home

Moreover, what you did the other day, 3rd to speak and NV/V
is irrelevant: at 3rd position and fav it is well known that many
opening bids show exactly 13 cards.

nikos

This comment is worth only 1 abbreviation: ROFL!

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Dec 10 2004, 01:26 PM, said:

I open 1NT, with this 5-4 despite easy rebid after 1♥ any bid - 2♦

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I wont. AAKK are suit oriented, arent they?

[Free]

inquiry, on Dec 10 2004, 02:26 PM, said:

I open 1NT, with this 5-4 despite easy rebid after 1♥ any bid - 2♦

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In 3rd seat, clear 1NT, but not in 1 or 2. You can miss a distributional slam too easy imo...

[han]

inquiry, on Dec 10 2004, 08:26 AM, said:

I open 1NT, with this 5-4 despite easy rebid after 1♥ any bid - 2♦

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Why? What is it that makes this hand more suitable for 1NT than for 1H?