[dwar0123]

---

The 1nt was 11-15, 2♣ was staymen, the first double was discussed and agreed as penalty. The question is, what is the 2nd double.

[ArtK78]

dwar0123, on 2012-November-28, 12:18, said:

---

The 1nt was 11-15, 2♣ was staymen, the first double was discussed and agreed as penalty. The question is, what is the 2nd double.

The flippant answer to your question "is the double for takeout or penalty" is yes.

Seriously, I think it is for penalty, as fourth hand could have bid or doubled over 2♣ or balanced with 2NT or 3 of a suit.

[BunnyGo]

Some people play with the agreement that: "if any double has been made or left in as a penalty double, then all future doubles are automatically penalty." I like this agreement (occasionally with modifications for specific circumstances) and would apply it here. However, if my partner wanted to exempt this (or similar) auctions from that rule, then I'd play it as takeout.

[jeffford76]

dwar0123, on 2012-November-28, 12:18, said:

The 1nt was 11-15, 2♣ was staymen, the first double was discussed and agreed as penalty. The question is, what is the 2nd double.

It sounds flippant, but the answer is "whatever you agreed it is". My partnerships have the agreement that after we double 1NT that subsequent doubles are penalty (and to a point passes are forcing, although we can pass out 2♠), but others play that subsequent doubles are takeout.

[dwar0123]

jeffford76, on 2012-November-28, 14:46, said:

It sounds flippant, but the answer is "whatever you agreed it is". My partnerships have the agreement that after we double 1NT that subsequent doubles are penalty (and to a point passes are forcing, although we can pass out 2♠), but others play that subsequent doubles are takeout.

The answer is always "whatever you agreed it is". I wouldn't be asking if we had an agreement

[Phil]

dwar0123, on 2012-November-28, 14:58, said:

The answer is always "whatever you agreed it is". I wouldn't be asking if we had an agreement

Then you should make one.

You should also agree how high of a force you are in and what the double of 2♣ means.

I've played 1st penalty, 2nd takeout, 3rd penalty, but I've also played 1st penalty, 2ndpenalty.

[jeffford76]

dwar0123, on 2012-November-28, 14:58, said:

The answer is always "whatever you agreed it is". I wouldn't be asking if we had an agreement

I understand this, but I think there are certain situations that are so widely played multiple ways that it doesn't really make sense to say "what is standard?" or "what is the default undiscussed?" because I don't think there is one. Lots of low level penalty/takeout questions fall into this bucket including this one.

[sfi]

dwar0123, on 2012-November-28, 14:58, said:

The answer is always "whatever you agreed it is". I wouldn't be asking if we had an agreement

Do you have an agreement about what East's double of 2C and West's double of 2S would have been? This double should probably mean the same thing as those. If they have different meanings then you have probably thought about this long enough to have a meaning for this double as well.

[dwar0123]

If double is takeout, what would 2nt be?

[Vampyr]

Phil, on 2012-November-28, 15:29, said:

I've played 1st penalty, 2nd takeout, 3rd penalty, but I've also played 1st penalty, 2ndpenalty.

Yes, I have partners who prefer each of these. I think that the first option is slightly more common, but I do not know which I would assume without discussion.

[awm]

Pretty sure that "standard" is once you have made a penalty double (or converted a double for penalty) subsequent doubles are penalty.

Personally I play takeout in all partnerships where I have discussed it though.

[Flem72]

awm, on 2012-November-28, 20:35, said:

Pretty sure that "standard" is once you have made a penalty double (or converted a double for penalty) subsequent doubles are penalty.

Personally I play takeout in all partnerships where I have discussed it though.

Agree on everything in theory and congratulate you that you have been able to win the discussion(s).

[antonylee]

I play this as takeout, as awm. Probably penalty could work too but if West's second double is penalty too then what is he supposed to do with x AKxx AKQxx KQx? On the other hand if he holds KQxx AKx AKQxx xx he just has to wait for his partner to protect.

[P_Marlowe]

A common agreement is, we mad a penalty double, all following doubles are for penalty.

A different agreement is, all low level double of partial contracts in a suit are for
takeout.

I think the later is more useful, even after a penalty double of an NT, you will be more
often short in their suit, than having (some) length.

Also important is, does the penalty double create a forcing pass and how high, because if
you are in a forcing pass sequence, than double is penalty.
So your forcing pass agreement could mean, that doubles of their runout below a certain
level are penalty, and above are for takeout, i.e. combining both agreements.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Since reponder presumably has a garbage stayman hand, our fit can only be in clubs, but I didn't double 2♣. I suppose a balanced hand with 4-4 in the minors and clubs not good enough to double 2♣ would like to have a t/o'ish double here but isn't it a bit of a narrow target?

In general I prefer take-out doubles after we doubled 1NT for penalties but this Stayman auction is different, I think.

[Zelandakh]

The traditional meaning of any double after a penalty double/redouble or penalty pass is penalty. Without discussion I would assume this is implicitly agreed. However, there are many pairs that play (some or all) doubles after a penalty double of 1NT as cooperative takeout. It is worth discussing these matters with a regular partner.

Here's a further test question for you - what did your partner's pass of 2♣ mean from your point of view? What would a double instead have meant? The answer to these questions might conceivably impact on the answer to yours.

[dwar0123]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-29, 04:12, said:

The traditional meaning of any double after a penalty double/redouble or penalty pass is penalty. Without discussion I would assume this is implicitly agreed. However, there are many pairs that play (some or all) doubles after a penalty double of 1NT as cooperative takeout. It is worth discussing these matters with a regular partner.

Here's a further test question for you - what did your partner's pass of 2♣ mean from your point of view? What would a double instead have meant? The answer to these questions might conceivably impact on the answer to yours.

Doubling 2♣ would have shown clubs, passing denied good ♣. Not discussed specifically other then the meta agreement that doubling artificial bids shows the suit bid.

[FrancesHinden]

P_Marlowe, on 2012-November-29, 03:51, said:

Also important is, does the penalty double create a forcing pass and how high, because if
you are in a forcing pass sequence, than double is penalty.
So your forcing pass agreement could mean, that doubles of their runout below a certain
level are penalty, and above are for takeout, i.e. combining both agreements.

With kind regards
Marlowe

No. If pass is forcing, it is very playable to keep double as take-out, as I do in all my partnerships. There are some theoretical advantages to this, and basically no disadvantages.
If pass is non-forcing, I think it is important to play double as take-out as that is a more common hand-type than a penalty double.

[FrancesHinden]

dwar0123, on 2012-November-29, 11:05, said:

Doubling 2♣ would have shown clubs, passing denied good ♣. Not discussed specifically other then the meta agreement that doubling artificial bids shows the suit bid.

Given that 2C was forcing and artificial, you might find it useful to agree instead that doubling shows values and sets up a forcing pass over opener's rebid, while pass shows a weak hand and means pass is not forcing.

[han]

I like all that Frances said here.