[JonnyQuest]

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If you choose double (too strong for an overcall), what is the upper limit of your overcall strength?

[manudude03]

I double because I have takeout shape. I don't plan on rebidding hearts. Nice pips, but not enough to make it too strong for an overcall.

[PhilKing]

It's a common question. I double, not because it is too strong to overcall - I just prefer it. But the vote tends to be about 2 to 1 in favour of the overcall.

[Codo]

Surely not too strong. And a close to perfect shape for a take out...

But I rate my hand as strong enough for 1 ♥ and a possible later double of 1 NT or 2♣.

Despite this choice I guess it is much more common to double now and forget about the hearts if partner does not ask for your longest major.

[the_clown]

I overcall because I feel strong enough to double any number of clubs when they come back to me. With a weaker hand I would probably double right away.

[P_Marlowe]

1H.

What to do with 54 in the majors is an endless discussion subject, although
the war got decided long ago in favour of an overcall (5hearts 4 spades ...
there is some more merrit in X, bt nevertheless).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ggwhiz]

 JonnyQuest, on 2012-November-27, 07:44, said:

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If you choose double (too strong for an overcall), what is the upper limit of your overcall strength?

More to the point is what's a minimum hand too strong to overcall.

For me it's at least a king better than this or 3 more tricks with better shape/suit quality.

I prefer the overcall cause it's too annoying when pard has to respond in diamonds with 3 (or 2 good) hearts. I can't bid over that without seriously overstating my strength.

[mycroft]

If I'm doubling, I'm not bidding hearts after. This is nowhere near "too strong to overcall" in my style.

If I bid hearts, I'm comfortable doubling clubs next time around.

If I double, I put a heart in with my diamonds and bid it like the (very) good 14 4=4=4=1 it is.

My advisor bids hearts and doubles later. Since one of my rules is "listen to one or two people who are (much) better than you but bid your style, and ignore everyone else", when I ask and get that answer, that's what I do.

[Phil]

I used to double with these hands but I've overcalled this shape for at least the last five years, due to opinions on the forums.

Hard to explain the reasons but one is I don't care much for my next call when partner bids a 1N response to double.

[jogs]

1♥. If the bidding stays low willing to double next.

1♣ - 1♥ - 2♣ - p
p - X

[PhilKing]

Overcalling 1♥ is not all sweetness and light.

Take the sequence (1♣)-1♥-)2/3♣)-p-(p)-x. Now if double showed four spades, that would be brilliant, but it doesn't. We could be 3631 or 3541 or 3532, so partner has can't safely bid spades on a four-card suit.

The way I play it, overcalling hearts almost denies four spades. Also, my overcall then double sequence shows greater high-card power or four diamonds, since I am doubling first with this hand type.

For me, the overcall drops the ball when it comes to spade contracts.

[Codo]

You are not convincing.

There is no reason for partner not to bid spades with four of them even if we frequently have a 3541 or 3631. It is possible to win 4/3 fits, especially if you can ruff with the short hand....
To double in later with x54y seems quite pointless too. You may bid your second suit cheaply- something that is much more difficult with 45xy....

[PhilKing]

 Codo, on 2012-November-28, 08:07, said:

You are not convincing.

There is no reason for partner not to bid spades with four of them even if we frequently have a 3541 or 3631. It is possible to win 4/3 fits, especially if you can ruff with the short hand....
To double in later with x54y seems quite pointless too. You may bid your second suit cheaply- something that is much more difficult with 45xy....

Didn't mean partner couldn't bid a four carder. He can with strong pips, but in my style he is aware that I will almost never have four spades, so he does it as a matter of judgment.

And if you want to reopen with two or 3 diamonds with a 3541 16 count (absurd, obviously) then feel free!

[Phil]

 PhilKing, on 2012-November-28, 07:27, said:

The way I play it, overcalling hearts almost denies four spades. Also, my overcall then double sequence shows greater high-card power or four diamonds, since I am doubling first with this hand type.

And for the overcallers, doubling almost denies a five card major, at least at the one level. I understand your point about finding a 4-4 spade fit (which I might be able to do anyway), but how can you sensibly locate a 5-3 heart fit?

[mikeh]

The hand is not even remotely close to double then hearts. The suit is too weak and the hand is way too weak.

I bid 1♥. I intend to double at my next turn if feasible.

Yes, I miss some 4-4 spade fits. But I find my 5-3 heart fits which double doesn't.

If we have enough for game, we can often find spades, and if we don't have game, then we aren't usually losing much (if anything) for playing the 5-3.

An important point that I don't think anyone has yet mentioned is that LHO may be about to bid 1N or 2♣. There are many hands on which we need to be competing in hearts on which partner can't bid over either 2♣ or 1N if we start with double. Some of these include 4 card spade suits, some 4-4 in the majors, and a host have 3 card heart support. Then we add Phil's point about our discomfort if it is partner who bids 1N, and it seems to me that the double causes far more problems than does the straightforward 1♥ overcall.

[Trinidad]

I double. This has nothing to do with the strength or the shape. With other hands with this shape I would overcall 1♥, possibly doubling (or bidding 2♠) later.

But since the heart suit is actually the weakest of my 3 suits, I will double.

Rik

[MrAce]

1♥

[phil_20686]

The reason to overcall is that most of your gain from getting into these auctions comes when you have a big fit and partner can immediately bounce the auction.

I think this hand is strong enough to overcall then double at reasonable levels, and that gives me the best of both worlds.

If the hand was weaker, such that I would not consider another action, I think dble is ok. Its still not my style, but since I overcall a lot at the on level, and dble only with sound(ish values) a bid that gets across my strength is clearly quite valuable.

If you make it a little stronger still then I think 1H followed by double is clearly better. If you make it less than (say) 12 HCP then 1H then pass is clearly better. in the 12-14 ish range its close whether to double or to bid, as you will often only make one action. I prefer to bid 1H but its close.

Hands that can take two actions (14-17) should definitely bid 1H first. V strong hands should dble then bid hearts, but you are far away from that here. Think prime 17-20 ish.

[PhilKing]

I need one more double from someone who appreciates the spade suit in order to fulfill my prediction of a two to one vote in favour of 1♥.

[steve2005]

 ggwhiz, on 2012-November-27, 09:21, said:

More to the point is what's a minimum hand too strong to overcall.

For me it's at least a king better than this or 3 more tricks with better shape/suit quality.

I prefer the overcall cause it's too annoying when pard has to respond in diamonds with 3 (or 2 good) hearts. I can't bid over that without seriously overstating my strength.

yes i go with overcall, dont want annoying ♦ response especially at matchpoints
can partner introduce a 4 card spade suit with 1♠? that could be nice