[fromageGB]

JonnyQuest, on 2012-November-27, 07:44, said:

If you choose double (too strong for an overcall), what is the upper limit of your overcall strength?

I am not sure what the question really means.

If is specifically asking those who would double with this exact hand (because they think it is too strong for an overcall) how weaker they would be with this 45xx shape to not double, but call something else, I don't think we have heard an answer. I would have thought that anyone who would double with this hand would also double with a weaker hand of this shape if they were too strong to pass.

If it is just asking "on this hand do you double or bid hearts", then that has been answered by a 2 to 1 majority.

If it is asking "forget this hand, but what is the boundary line between an immediate overcall and doubling followed by a bid", then a typical 18+ seems to be the boundary, or a useful 17.

[mike777]

excellent thread and comments by all.

I see the current vote is 30-16 for 1h.

Here is an email comment from a multi world champion in response:


"I understand your argument, but with this specific shape, I think the combined chance of finding a spade fit more easily, and a D fit make DBL the percentage choice. Also, with a stiff club more chance of a preemptive raise, so more reason to make one descriptive bid for your hand"

responding to this email:

"Hi guys…..this topic is actually near and dear to my heart. I used to struggle with 4-5 or 5-4 in the majors and often made take-out doubles in that situation, especially with 3 cards in the opposite minor, regardless of strength.



However, in the not too distant past, some guy named (edit;famous wc player) told me he always overcalls the major. And his reasoning was quite compelling. Simply put, partner is a lot more likely to have 3 cards opposite your 5 than have 4 cards opposite your 4. Alex could run a computer simulation to see what the exact odds are, but I am sure it is significant.



So when you double, you will lose the most common fit you are likely to have, the 5-3 in your major.



And it doesn’t really matter how strong you are. Even with a weak hand worth only 1 bid. Of course with a little bit more than a minimum, you can even overcall and perhaps show the other suit later (via bidding it or doubling), giving you a chance to still discover a 4-4 fit in the other major.



But if you double initially, you just cannot recover to find a 5-3 fit (unless you are so strong you can double and originate, of course)."

[Lord Molyb]

PhilKing, on 2012-November-29, 21:25, said:

I need one more double from someone who appreciates the spade suit in order to fulfill my prediction of a two to one vote in favour of 1♥.

denied

I bid one 1♥ and double later to show this exact shape.

[mikeh]

Lord Molyb, on 2012-December-09, 19:03, said:

denied

I bid one 1♥ and double later to show this exact shape.

I agree with the plan, but it is wrong to state that it shows this exact shape. 3=6=3=1, 3=5=4=1 are just as consistent.

[Balrog49]

Phil, on 2012-November-27, 19:34, said:

I used to double with these hands but I've overcalled this shape for at least the last five years, due to opinions on the forums.

Hard to explain the reasons but one is I don't care much for my next call when partner bids a 1N response to double.

Same here. My partners have convinced me to overcall with these hands and so far, the results have been as good or better than double.