[Balrog49]

Many people play that you bid five spades when holding two aces and extra length in the trump suit. What exactly constitutes extra length?

[manudude03]

It's not "extra length" per say. It's often done when the responder knows of a 10 card fit which the asker might not know about. When this happens, the responder pretends he has the queen and shows it even if it isn't present.

[PhilKing]

manudude03, on 2012-November-24, 17:12, said:

It's not "extra length" per say. It's often done when the responder knows of a 10 card fit which the asker might not know about. When this happens, the responder pretends he has the queen and shows it even if it isn't present.

This - apart from word six.

[Balrog49]

manudude03, on 2012-November-24, 17:12, said:

It's not "extra length" per say. It's often done when the responder knows of a 10 card fit which the asker might not know about. When this happens, the responder pretends he has the queen and shows it even if it isn't present.

This hand was easy but what if responder has only six clubs?

---

[blackshoe]

per se

[manudude03]

I like to use words that you can use out of the saying, I don't care if it's use is wrong

[aguahombre]

Balrog49, on 2012-November-24, 17:32, said:

This hand was easy but what if responder has only six clubs?

---

The auction tells us partner does not have only 3-cards in clubs. Six of them is fine. You might discuss using something other than 4N for RKCB when a minor is trumps, however.

[Trinidad]

aguahombre, on 2012-November-24, 20:57, said:

The auction tells us partner does not have only 3-cards in clubs.

I think that is quite a statement. If I would have this auction, you can be sure that opener has precisely 1 or 2 clubs (and 4NT would not be asking for keycards for clubs).

Did you perhaps miss that the 1♣ opening was Precision?

Rik

[aguahombre]

Trinidad, on 2012-November-25, 01:01, said:

I think that is quite a statement. If I would have this auction, you can be sure that opener has precisely 1 or 2 clubs (and 4NT would not be asking for keycards for clubs).

Did you perhaps miss that the 1♣ opening was Precision?

Rik

No, I didn't miss that. I also didn't miss that the poster was responding to RkCB for clubs, or else he wouldn't have posted at all in this thread. I answered his question as given, not about the auction you or I would have ---and the part you didn't quote, recommending against using 4N as RKC for clubs, even made that clearer.

[Trinidad]

aguahombre, on 2012-November-25, 02:16, said:

No, I didn't miss that. I also didn't miss that the poster was responding to RkCB for clubs, or else he wouldn't have posted at all in this thread. I answered his question as given, not about the auction you or I would have ---and the part you didn't quote, recommending against using 4N as RKC for clubs, even made that clearer.

From what do you conclude that -in the system of the OP- opener cannot have:
♠AKQx
♥AKQx
♦Kx
♣Kxx

Rik

[fromageGB]

I voted for 2 extra on the premise that you would not be in a supporting situation without having an 8 card fit, thus making 10 in total. It is hard to imagine not knowing partner's length, though.

[Balrog49]

aguahombre, on 2012-November-24, 20:57, said:

You might discuss using something other than 4N for RKCB when a minor is trumps, however.

Good idea but irrelevant. In theory, we could play that 4C is
Minorwood but we have a different agreement (see below). Minorwood is
fine for natural systems but doesn't make much sense opposite a strong
club. Here's what opener's rebids would have been:

2♥, 2♠ - Alpha asking for fit and controls
2NT - Balanced 19-21
3♣ - Gamma asking for suit quality
3♦ - Cancels asking sequence and starts cue bidding
3♥, 3♠ - Zeta asking for precise holding
3NT - Signoff
4♣ - Beta asking for total controls
4♦ - Splinter asking for cue bidding
4♥, 4♠ - Signoff
4NT - RKCB
5 any - Signoff

[Balrog49]

Trinidad, on 2012-November-25, 02:35, said:

From what do you conclude that -in the system of the OP- opener cannot have:
♠AKQx
♥AKQx
♦Kx
♣Kxx

Rik

Partner's actual hand was:

---

Knowing that responder had extra length helped him place the contract.
He can count three spades, one heart, one diamond, and six clubs = 11
tricks off the top. If seven clubs, then 12 off the top. In either
case, if spades run, 7NT is cold. If not, there's the heart finesse
and there may be a squeeze. And responder could have the jack of spades
and/or one or two red kings. Opener would have bid 5NT to check.

We didn't actually play this hand. The opponents did. They got all the way to 5♣.
Playing Precision guarantees that the opponents get these hands.

[Vampyr]

manudude03, on 2012-November-24, 18:22, said:

I like to use words that you can use out of the saying, I don't care if it's use is wrong

"It's", for example?

[Zelandakh]

It seems to me that the 4NT rebid as RCB is completely redundant. Since a 3♦ rebid starts cue bids it is possible to envisage

1♣ = 16+
... - 2♣ = nat GF
3♦ = agrees clubs
... - 3NT = diamond control, no major control
4♣ = RKCB, etc

or, probably better, just making the Gamma ask before checking controls. It is certainly not true that Minorwood makes no sense in a strong club context. However, jumps to 4NT which skip 3 levels of bidding generally do not make sense. There is almost always a better option - here we have (arguably) at least 3 better options. In this case you are justifying the 7NT bid by saying that partner might have this or that but you could possibly have found out some of these things by taking a different route and thus bidding, or staying out of, 7NT with much more confidence. Of course you sometimes have to guess - the main attraction of a 4NT bid here seems to be knowing the opps will raise to 5♦ behind it. Otherwise it seems to be a poor choice.

[fromageGB]

Vampyr, on 2012-November-25, 23:14, said:

"It's", for example?

Don't forget we both speak English, while American is a different language. Languages evolve, and it is the duty of the young to attempt to change things, however misguided or unguided they may be.

[manudude03]

Vampyr, on 2012-November-25, 23:14, said:

"It's", for example?

precisely; I broke up with grammar last week.

[blackshoe]

I guess I'm too old school. I like my communications to communicate something other than "blackshoe is illiterate".

[Balrog49]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-26, 02:31, said:

It seems to me that the 4NT rebid as RCB is completely redundant. Since a 3♦ rebid starts cue bids it is possible to envisage

1♣ = 16+
... - 2♣ = nat GF
3♦ = agrees clubs
... - 3NT = diamond control, no major control
4♣ = RKCB, etc

or, probably better, just making the Gamma ask before checking controls. It is certainly not true that Minorwood makes no sense in a strong club context. However, jumps to 4NT which skip 3 levels of bidding generally do not make sense. There is almost always a better option - here we have (arguably) at least 3 better options. In this case you are justifying the 7NT bid by saying that partner might have this or that but you could possibly have found out some of these things by taking a different route and thus bidding, or staying out of, 7NT with much more confidence. Of course you sometimes have to guess - the main attraction of a 4NT bid here seems to be knowing the opps will raise to 5♦ behind it. Otherwise it seems to be a poor choice.

If there is no interference, 3♣ Gamma will tell you that partner has six to one honor (the ace). Unfortunately, it doesn't include a way to show seven or more. Then 4♣ Beta will tell you that partner has four controls and that your total is ten but you don't know whether he has the ace of diamonds or two red kings. Then 5♦ or 5♥ Epsilon will tell you which.

But if there is interference, you may not get the chance to make three asking bids, even playing D1P2 and R1P2. That's why I can't find fault with 4NT. Partner will show the trump queen with extra length and thus 4NT potentially gets you more information than three asking bids.

In all my years of playing Precision, I can't remember another instance of Blackwood occurring in a 1♣ auction.

[Vampyr]

fromageGB, on 2012-November-26, 03:57, said:

Don't forget we both speak English, while American is a different language. Languages evolve, and it is the duty of the young to attempt to change things, however misguided or unguided they may be.

I did spend my first 30 years in America, so I think I can justly claim to be fluent in the language .