[PhilKing]

Partner clearly moves with ♠Qxxx ♥xx ♦KQxx ♣Jxx.

[Fluffy]

PhilKing, on 2012-November-14, 08:18, said:

Partner clearly moves with ♠Qxxx ♥xx ♦KQxx ♣Jxx.

This example is not good, no opening distigguish this hand from another without ♦Q.

[PhilKing]

Fluffy, on 2012-November-14, 09:54, said:

This example is not good, no opening distigguish this hand from another without ♦Q.

Well, I admit 2♣ does not ask for the ♦Q but the auction should work out imo, but it depends on whether you play good continuations.

[Phil]

Fluffy, on 2012-November-14, 09:54, said:

This example is not good, no opening distigguish this hand from another without ♦Q.

2♣ - 2♦
2♥* - 2♠**
3♥ - 4♦
4♠ - 5♦...

Should get you there. Its even easier if you make the sensible inversion of 3♣ and 3♥.

[PhilKing]

Phil, on 2012-November-14, 10:32, said:

2♣ - 2♦
2♥* - 2♠**
3♥ - 4♦
4♠ - 5♦...

Should get you there. Its even easier if you make the sensible inversion of 3♣ and 3♥.

Well I had in mind:

2♣-2♦(promising 5+)
2♥-2NT
3♥(sets hearts but non-solid)-3♠ (no ace, not worst hand, so denies singleton small heart)
4♣-4♦(king)
4NT(spade cue)-5♦(queen)
6♥

[wyman]

To the 2C-ers: are you also opening this 2C in other chairs?

[gwnn]

wyman, on 2012-November-14, 11:03, said:

To the 2C-ers: are you also opening this 2C in other chairs?

Yes

[JLOGIC]

I think 4H is ridiculous, I am not giving up on slam with a hand this good when there are many possible auctions where we can still find it.

I prefer 2C (TEN TRICKS BRO!) but 1H is fine also, anything but 4H.

[MrAce]

PhilKing, on 2012-November-14, 08:18, said:

Partner clearly moves with ♠Qxxx ♥xx ♦KQxx ♣Jxx.

Partner clearly leaves us in game when we open 2♣ and he has

KQxx x QJx Qxxxx ?
KQxx x Kxxx Qxxx ?
KJxx QJx x Jxxxx ?
etc etc

Perhaps a good pd may avoid slam, but 5♥ may not be as cold as grammas home made icecream in some of those

Please tell me that you would avoid slam by just asking keycards, so i can fill the topic with hands with real 2♣ openers that are cold in slam. All i need to do is to reduce couple hearts from opener and fill it up to 23 hcp.

I am not saying 2♣ is bad, i personally would never open this 2♣, it would not even occur to me. But we all know this hand can make slam or even grandslam for a few from pd and yes those who opens 1♥ will miss them most likely, but there are also hands that you will lose the board for opening 2♣.

[quiddity]

MrAce, on 2012-November-17, 07:35, said:

I am not saying 2♣ is bad, i personally would never open this 2♣, it would not even occur to me. But we all know this hand can make slam or even grandslam for a few from pd and yes those who opens 1♥ will miss them most likely, but there are also hands that you will lose the board for opening 2♣.

I would tend to sign off if partner bids spades over 2C-2D; 3H or whatever. This might miss some slams when partner has the ace of spades but you're right: if he has spade concentration it will generally not be good for us.

And yes, if he bids spades with your sample hands and we sign off he should leave us in game (of course).

[PhilKing]

MrAce, on 2012-November-17, 07:35, said:

Partner clearly leaves us in game when we open 2♣ and he has

KQxx x QJx Qxxxx ?
KQxx x Kxxx Qxxx ?
KJxx QJx x Jxxxx ?
etc etc

Perhaps a good pd may avoid slam, but 5♥ may not be as cold as grammas home made icecream in some of those

Please tell me that you would avoid slam by just asking keycards, so i can fill the topic with hands with real 2♣ openers that are cold in slam. All i need to do is to reduce couple hearts from opener and fill it up to 23 hcp.

First two auctions start:

2♣-2♦(promising 5+)
2♥-2NT
3♥(sets hearts but non-solid)

I'm not even sure responder is worth 3♠ here (no ace, some interest - 3NT would show spade ace). But that is predicated on a loose 2♣ opening style, so we don't point-count our way to five.

Sure, the third hand gets to five (maybe even six, lol), but that is fine.

I had a match on Wednesday where opponents bid to 6♥ after opening 2♣ on ♠Kx ♥AKQJxxx ♦AQx ♣x which was huge opposite ♠Jxxx ♥xx ♦xx ♣AKQxx. Team mates languished in game via 1♥-1♠-4♥. Apparently, they should have got there via a 3♦ rebid, blah blah blah, but I don't see that kind of thing work very often. I just think that if the rebid has to be a jump in a three-card suit with no great fit for partner, then you are better off overbidding in the first place and then bidding more naturally.

[neilkaz]

2♣=10, 1♥=5, 4♥=0

2♣ for me as this is almost certainly 10 tricks (not just 9..more like 9.75+). Opening 1♥ will miss too many slams and certainly at these colors we aren't afraid of two passed opps finding 4♠ after we open 2♣. I am more concerned the opps may find 4♠ if I open 1♥ and then rebid 4♥ but with both of them passed at these colors it won't happen often even if it is good for them.

With all due respect to those who bid 4♥, you simply miss FAR too many slams. After 4♥ perhaps you find PD with Axxx,xx,Kxxx,Kxx...kewl...+510 and minus a partner.

Of course bidding 4♥ in 4th seat isn't the same as in an earlier seat, but to me it doesn't show 9.75+ tricks and a hand needing little for slam.

I'd open this 2♣ in all seats as this is almost 10 tricks and with three bullets I have some defense if the opps get frisky.

PS great post and thread and NO this doesn't belong in N/B as we can see from the many comments and good players who don't agree what to open.

EDIT: Take away a minor suit ace and the ten of trumps and then this hand is in the 8.5-9 trick range and I have no problem with a 4♥ opening in 4th seat.

[neilkaz]

Phil King wrote "I had a match on Wednesday where opponents bid to 6♥ after opening 2♣ on ♠Kx ♥AKQJxxx ♦AQx ♣x which was huge opposite ♠Jxxx ♥xx ♦xx ♣AKQxx. Team mates languished in game via 1♥-1♠-4♥. Apparently, they should have got there via a 3♦ rebid, blah blah blah, but I don't see that kind of thing work very often. I just think that if the rebid has to be a jump in a three-card suit with no great fit for partner, then you are better off overbidding in the first place and then bidding more naturally."

Is 2♣ even an overbid here? It is a min for sure, but this looks like 9 tricks usually for me and if PD has a bust perhaps the lead can give you 9 tricks or he has the J♦ or Q♠ and nothing else.

Playing "standard" after 2♣-3♣(looks positive to me) 3♥-(whatever in response) - 4♥(or perhaps opened jumps to 4♥ to show a min and solid ♥) responder can expect slam to be a very clear fav.

After opening 1♥ and then JS to 3♦ the auction often goes awry and responder can never be sure how good opener's trumps are.

[jdeegan]

2♣. I have an almost 80% slam opposite four small hearts and the KQx of either minor (and, of course, many other hands as well). Vul opponents, who have passed so far, are less likely than normal to interfere.

I think it would be a good example hand for N/B forums because it illustrates a number of important very basic topics surrounding the strong two bid opener:
1. Playing strength: 8+ tricks in ♥.
2. Defense: 4 quick tricks
3. Slam and game potential: can make slam opposite a hand too weak to respond to 1♥.
4. Opponents' interference: our stiff spade is of some concern as the other three hands have 12 between them.
5. The correct bid of 2♣ is clear cut.