[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2012-November-13, 11:59, said:

I understand your p.o.v., tho I would quibble and suggest that you also have to factor in the cost of going wrong. Missing a vul game costs 10 imps if you play at the 3 level. Going down at the 5-level, undoubled, costs 12 imps, so you need to factor in that difference.

I suggest it also matters how you play invites. As I explained in another recent thread, my style is to invite conservatively and accept aggressively. That means that I will accept 3♥ more often than do players who use a different philosophy.

I'd expect partner to accept with most 8 counts and 4 hearts, so long as he has no wastage in spades (he should see spade values as wasted even without the splinter because of the overcall) and with weaker hands with extra shape/secondary fit. So I miss some games. Tant pis.

Your philosophy on invites means that you and I may well have legitimately different answers to the question I asked

Starting with 2♠ I wouldn't expect to wrongly get to the 5 level very often and would certainly be in 4♥ on this hand with the rest of the world.

[silvr bull]

Phil, on 2012-November-13, 10:13, said:

Sorry for the brusque reply earlier. I usually wait until someone's 10th post before I accuse them of trolling.

Thanks for the warning, Phil. I will try to be more careful when I use up my “get out of troll” card in my next five posts.

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One point that hasn't been made about the splinter is that it makes it very difficult later in the bidding. Your partner has a completely normal 4♦ call over 3♠, and now it feels like you need to take over since you have the club covers - you are endplayed in the bidding to an extent. So a hand that has gone from a minimum splinter, has now become a hand that forces to the 5 level!

Excellent point! This is precisely what happened during the auction. My 3♠ call was aggressive. It was almost like I turned on a treadmill and jumped on it with that call. Then partner’s 4♦ call kicked the treadmill speed up to high, and I didn’t know how to get off. The ♣ honors that partner couldn’t be sure I had were like handcuffs that kept me running on the treadmill. If I had this hand to bid over again, I would still force to game, but then partner would have to drag me kicking and screaming to get me past 4♥.

Phil, on 2012-November-13, 10:13, said:

If you made me bid game, I still wouldn't splinter, and would prefer four hearts, which implies more playing strength, and its less of a slam try (which you haven't got).

I would like to hear any comments on the different connotations of the 3♠ splinter versus an immediate 4♥ call. Beyond the singleton or void shown by the splinter, does one imply more high cards while the other implies more distribution? Does a jump to 4♥ deny holding a singleton or void in ♠ (or in ♣ if I bid 4♣ over 1♠)? Which of the two more strongly suggests slam? On the actual hand with partner holding the ♦A, the 3♠ call helped to relieve the bidding pressure on partner since he can que his ♦A below game, and then happily pass if I had the good sense to stop at 4♥. If I jumped to 4♥ instead, partner would have a concern about having a key card that he had not been able to tell me about yet.

Guys (and Gals), I declare a unilateral cease fire on the question of inviting with 3♥ versus forcing to game. Even if I wanted to convince some of you that forcing to game is likely to win more points over the long run, I am unable to do so. I am however, as much a bull about this as I am about the price of silver, so it is time for me to agree to disagree and move on.

mikeh, on 2012-November-13, 10:35, said:

Welcome to the forums and back to the game.

Thanks. I am happy to have found my way back to a “home” that I left much too long ago. Thanks too for your thoughtful points about inviting versus forcing with my hand.

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As for preventing a show of support by splintering, that works only if you are able to remove the double card from LHO's bidding box...a move that is viewed with disapproval in most games.

Please help me to understand this one a little better. If I held Ax or Kx of partner’s suit after my RHO splintered in it, I would double that call to tell partner that I am happy for him to lead his suit. My double of the splinter in partner’s bid suit would be lead directing, but it would not indicate a desire or more support for partner to bid higher in that suit. With xxxx in the splintered suit, in contrast, I would not double because I would not want to encourage partner to lead from an ace jack or a king jack high holding. With a suitable hand containing xxxx of partner’s suit, I would raise the suit to show good support, but I would not raise with Ax or Kx until partner has rebid the suit. Is it your view that a double of a splinter in partner’s suit is just a low budget call that shows the same support as raising that suit instead of lead directing?

[Fluffy]

3♥ invitational, 3♠ and 4♣ are splinters 4♦ is a solid suit and 4♥ is a shape hand that wants to play game opposite minimums but its not very interested in slam, I normally call this hands 6-4s and 7-4s/ I don't find 4♥ rdicoulous, better than 3♠ at least.

[Phil]

silvr bull, on 2012-November-14, 05:47, said:

Thanks for the warning, Phil. I will try to be more careful when I use up my “get out of troll” card in my next five posts.

LOL; choose 'wisely'

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I would like to hear any comments on the different connotations of the 3♠ splinter versus an immediate 4♥ call. Beyond the singleton or void shown by the splinter, does one imply more high cards while the other implies more distribution? Does a jump to 4♥ deny holding a singleton or void in ♠ (or in ♣ if I bid 4♣ over 1♠)? Which of the two more strongly suggests slam? On the actual hand with partner holding the ♦A, the 3♠ call helped to relieve the bidding pressure on partner since he can que his ♦A below game, and then happily pass if I had the good sense to stop at 4♥. If I jumped to 4♥ instead, partner would have a concern about having a key card that he had not been able to tell me about yet.

I think we had a discussion here (last year maybe?) where we talked about this exact subject. Not everyone agreed, but many thought the following:

- 1m - 1M - 3M showed two hand types:

a) The shapely raise to 3M - about 16-19 support points; x AKxx KQxx Kxxx; and
b) Balanced 17+/19

- A splinter (or a 6-4 jump) is reserved for hands above this range
- 4M shows a hand that you just can't stomach partner passing 3M. AQxx xxx AKxxxx void, but its still below the weight of a splinter.

Here's some of the rationale:

1. 1M over 1m hasn't promised "6 HCP" since the days Helen Sobel played. In certain situations its correct to bid 1M on a yarborough. Even though its likely partner does have values after 1m - p - 1M - p, there's no reason to get overboard.

2. By defining your splinters as rocks, slam bidding is a lot easier. Splinters hog a lot of room, and there's very little elbow room under four of our major. If you splinter on the hand you posted, and splinter with an Ace better, its really difficult for partner to evaluate adequately.

[JLOGIC]

silvr bull, on 2012-November-12, 06:42, said:

Is partner supposed to bid 4♥ with a hand like xxx Jxxxx Jxx xx, or maybe like xxx Qxxx xxx Qxx? Obviously those hands will not make a great game, but I would rather be in 4♥ than a part score with either of them

No, he is supposed to pass, luckily game is awful opposite both of those. What does it even mean that "obviously those hands will not make a great game, but I'd rather be in game than partscore?"

Game is zero percent on the first one if they defend correctly (they can just get a diamond ruff). Even if they don't always defend correctly, game is extremely bad (2-2 hearts with the ace on and no diamond ruff).

Of course, if partner has this hand the opps have 23 HCP and 9 spades so they will probably be declaring spades. They may or may not make 4S after club club club ruff (depending if they can pitch losers on the clubs). Maybe 4H will have a good preemptive effect but that is not what 4H means.

Game is also horrible on the 2nd one. On a normal defense like spade spade you have to ruff in dummy. For starters you need 1 heart loser, so you will need the overcaller to have Ax (you cannot handle Ax in the other hand as dummy will get tapped twice). If you try crossing to the CQ and playing a heart to the king and a heart, congratulations, it's Ax. Now they play a club. You are locked in dummy (can't play a heart because you have a spade loser) and they still have a trump, you are going to lose the jack of diamonds or a ruff almost all of the time unless you are very lucky from this position.

Even when you tried to cherry pick 2 hands that partner will pass with (no spade wastage, all working minimum) you have in fact enhanced the case for 3H, you will not play a no play game.

Your 3S bid is just an overbid. 15 and a stiff is a textbook 3H bid, your hand is not strong enough to force to game. On top of that, if you splinter with this your partner will have difficulty deciding when to bid slam after you splinter since you might have a normal splinter (x KQxx KQT9x AKx), or you might have even more (x KQxx AKJxx AKx). It will be impossible to bid accurately opposite such a wide range of splinters.

[silvr bull]

Phil, on 2012-November-14, 10:09, said:

LOL; choose 'wisely'



I think we had a discussion here (last year maybe?) where we talked about this exact subject. Not everyone agreed, but many thought the following:

- 1m - 1M - 3M showed two hand types:

a) The shapely raise to 3M - about 16-19 support points; x AKxx KQxx Kxxx; and
b) Balanced 17+/19

- A splinter (or a 6-4 jump) is reserved for hands above this range
- 4M shows a hand that you just can't stomach partner passing 3M. AQxx xxx AKxxxx void, but its still below the weight of a splinter.

Here's some of the rationale:

1. 1M over 1m hasn't promised "6 HCP" since the days Helen Sobel played. In certain situations its correct to bid 1M on a yarborough. Even though its likely partner does have values after 1m - p - 1M - p, there's no reason to get overboard.

2. By defining your splinters as rocks, slam bidding is a lot easier. Splinters hog a lot of room, and there's very little elbow room under four of our major. If you splinter on the hand you posted, and splinter with an Ace better, its really difficult for partner to evaluate adequately.

Phil, Thanks for taking the time to draft an excellent summary of the differences between a jump to game versus a splinter. I had the mistaken view that both were similar strength, and that the splinter showed only the additional value of shortness in the indicated suit. This was very helpful to me, and your effort in presenting this clear and compelling summary is much appreciated.

[Phil]

silvr bull, on 2012-November-15, 06:12, said:

Phil, Thanks for taking the time to draft an excellent summary of the differences between a jump to game versus a splinter.

You are welcome

[Cyberyeti]

Phil, on 2012-November-14, 10:09, said:

2. By defining your splinters as rocks, slam bidding is a lot easier. Splinters hog a lot of room, and there's very little elbow room under four of our major. If you splinter on the hand you posted, and splinter with an Ace better, its really difficult for partner to evaluate adequately.

Splinters below the level of 3N can be a little lighter as whoever gets the last bid below 3N can use 3N to distinguish whether they have a decent hand or not.

If you're not playing this or above 3N, I agree.

[Phil]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-November-15, 10:47, said:

Splinters below the level of 3N can be a little lighter as whoever gets the last bid below 3N can use 3N to distinguish whether they have a decent hand or not.

If you're not playing this or above 3N, I agree.

Good point. The closer we get to 4 of our major, the tighter the requirement should be.