[tysen2k]

I'm interested in people's preempting styles.

Matchpoints, none vul

♠xx
♥AQJTxx
♦Txxx
♣x

(1♠) - ?

[mikestar]

tysen2k, on Dec 3 2004, 07:56 PM, said:

I'm interested in people's preempting styles.

Matchpoints, none vul

♠xx
♥AQJTxx
♦Txxx
♣x

(1♠) - ?

Not even close. 2H suggests some useful values for alternative contracts. If someone put a gun to my head and threatend to shoot me if I bid 3H, I'd rather try 4H than 2H.

[inquiry]

My style can be summed up as a combination of 5431 (like hand patterns) and 5421 (off by a card).

Whne the opponents are vul, and I am not vul, I can be (but not always) totally wreckless... the five means I will be within five tricks on my bid. So for instance on this hand, I can imagine winning five heart tricks. So if opponents were vulnerable, I might very well bid 4♥'s, although that is not etched in stone.

When neither side is vulneable, I lossen up a bit, being within four tricks of my bid. Under this rule, this hand is a three heart bid (9 tricks needed, I think I can win five, 9-5 = 4).

When both are vul, I am generally sound, and within two of my bid at imps (5421), and within a certain 3 of my bid at matchpoints. IF I am vul and they are not, I will generally be within one of my bid.

Note: If partner is a passed hand, I have been known to preempt with the five loser hand, and with some VERY GOOD HANDS... the idea I have is to keep opponents guessing then.

So back to this question... With most partners I would bid 3♥.. with some I would pass. IT depends upon PARTNERSHIP style and comfort, not what I feel like doing. With my favorite partners, 3♥ is just about right.

Ben

[pbleighton]

3H, not close.

At favorable, like Ben, I bid 4H.

Peter

[the hog]

3H

[flytoox]

3H, but i think pass is close. doubleton spade is a minus here.

[whereagles]

Interesting tactical situation. A 3H is standard, BUT... it runs the risk of pushing opps into overbidding 4S and that might just make! Spades will break, and all finesses seem to be in (pard sits under the opener).

For these reasons, I'd venture a simple 2H here. It's lead-directing enough, and give opps enough space to "correctly" underbid the hand.

[the hog]

For these reasons, I'd venture a simple 2H here. It's lead-directing enough, and give opps enough space to "correctly" underbid the hand.

As you are not a passed hand, 2H grossly overstates the strength of your holding and is more likely to obfuscate partner's evaluation rather than that of the opponents.

Sure they may bid 4S after 3H, but as your partner is also not a passed hand he may be able to have a piece of this; on the other hand he may have a good hand and you may make 4H. You might also get hit by a bus when you step outside your front door; the fact is that at this stage of the auction you have no idea who's hand it is, so why lie?

[nickf]

3H, wtp?

nickf
sinny

[mike777]

2h or 3h,,


Hey let's mix it up ok.

[HeartA]

whereagles, on Dec 3 2004, 07:23 PM, said:

Interesting tactical situation. A 3H is standard, BUT... it runs the risk of pushing opps into overbidding 4S and that might just make! Spades will break, and all finesses seem to be in (pard sits under the opener).

For these reasons, I'd venture a simple 2H here. It's lead-directing enough, and give opps enough space to "correctly" underbid the hand.

I will bid 2H only. As my pd haven't had a chance to bid yet, He may have a good diamond suit and we may belong there. Or pd has the right card for the ♥ game (even a slam), or pd has enough to set opps' 4S, or opps don't have a game and neither do we. I just bid what I have, a 6-card ♥ though it is a little bit too good.

[the hog]

"I just bid what I have, a 6-card ♥ "

Unfortunately for your partner, you did not bid "what you have".

[bearmum]

I voted for "3♥ but pass is close" -- I think that bid describes my hand best

[Chamaco]

The_Hog, on Dec 4 2004, 12:43 AM, said:

As you are not a passed hand, 2H grossly overstates the strength of your holding and is more likely to obfuscate partner's evaluation rather than that of the opponents.

Ron, may I ask you to explain this better ?
I thought that:

1) bidding 3H is less constructive than 2H
2) the hand is a "textbook" 2nd seat weak 2 (opposite unpassed pard, disciplined suit requirements and length should help him taking an intelligent decision)
3) opposite unpassed pard, my NV 3-level bids may well have quite bad hands, but 2-level jump overcalls should have a "classical" weak 2.

Is there any of the above points you recommend reconsidering ?

Thanks !

[Antoine Fourrière]

3♥, without a doubt. A three-level jump to a cheaper suit only promises six cards.

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Dec 4 2004, 01:43 AM, said:

For these reasons, I'd venture a simple 2H here. It's lead-directing enough, and give opps enough space to "correctly" underbid the hand.

As you are not a passed hand, 2H grossly overstates the strength of your holding and is more likely to obfuscate partner's evaluation rather than that of the opponents.

Sure they may bid 4S after 3H, but as your partner is also not a passed hand he may be able to have a piece of this; on the other hand he may have a good hand and you may make 4H. You might also get hit by a bus when you step outside your front door; the fact is that at this stage of the auction you have no idea who's hand it is, so why lie?

I don't agree with your analysis.

1. The hand has 7 losers. It has the playing strenght required for a 2-level overcall. It will perform adequately in case pard bids game. Besides, someone who wants to bid THREE hearts cannot complain about playing strenght.

2. You CAN complain about not having enough defensive values. That is true, but only if your style is very solid 2-level overcalls. In any case, pard should not take 2H too seriously because you've robbed them of the most likely responses of 1NT, 2C, 2D.

3. At this stage of the auction it is a good bet the hand belongs to the opponents. No guarantees, but it's likely (only 7 points, LHO opened..). Preempting isn't just a matter of looking at the hand and bid what it's worth (and this one is definitely worth 3H). You have to think what your bid is bound to acheive, and in this case there is a serious risk of pushing opps to a making game on marginal values.

Bidding 3H may work wonders, but it the hints are there it may backfire. It took me a long time to understand these subtleties.

Interestingly, if the hand had a spade less and a club more

x
AQJTxx
Txxx
xx

then it just screams for a 3H overcall. Because now if they bid 4S, it is just possible that spades DON'T break.

[Flame]

Chamaco, on Dec 4 2004, 03:55 AM, said:

2) the hand is a "textbook" 2nd seat weak 2 (opposite unpassed pard, disciplined suit requirements and length should help him taking an intelligent decision)

2H here isnt a weak two, its an overcall at the two level which show alot more then weak 2, my overcalls at the 2 level are very solid and i found out latelt that the majority of experts agree with this, i see ppl explaning their partner's overcalls as 10-15 hcp and i lough since their range ends where mine just began, with 5332 i wouldnt bid less then 13-14 hcp.
whereagles has good points for bidding 2H, it could work but it could also costs when partner bid 3nt, or double the opponents based on ur 2h.
I would bid a simple 3H.
I guess Richard's mixing strategy can like always solves the problem.

[Chamaco]

Flame, on Dec 4 2004, 10:05 AM, said:

Chamaco, on Dec 4 2004, 03:55 AM, said:

2) the hand is a "textbook" 2nd seat weak 2 (opposite unpassed pard, disciplined suit requirements and length should help him taking an intelligent decision)

2H here isnt a weak two, its an overcall at the two level which show alot more then weak 2,

Argh sorry, just got a flu, did not realize it was not a jump

[the hog]

Chamaco, on Dec 4 2004, 06:55 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Dec 4 2004, 12:43 AM, said:

As you are not a passed hand, 2H grossly overstates the strength of your holding and is more likely to obfuscate partner's evaluation rather than that of the opponents.

Ron, may I ask you to explain this better ?
I thought that:

1) bidding 3H is less constructive than 2H
2) the hand is a "textbook" 2nd seat weak 2 (opposite unpassed pard, disciplined suit requirements and length should help him taking an intelligent decision)
3) opposite unpassed pard, my NV 3-level bids may well have quite bad hands, but 2-level jump overcalls should have a "classical" weak 2.

Is there any of the above points you recommend reconsidering ?

Thanks !

Mauro, no doubt we all agree that if partner is a passed hand we can take more liberties in the bidding because our chances of game are more remote, (though not impossible). It consequently does not matter too much if we mislead partner a little.

The posted hand is an excellent, and as you say, "classical" weak 2 bid. In other words it has good playing strength, but not too much defence.

A 2 level overcall on the other hand it is not. A 2 level overcall for me nv would be
something like -
x AQJxxx KJx xxx
You can fiddle the cards around a bit, maybe one less H, maybe more outside strenght etc. In other words when I overcall (1S) with 2H that is what my partner will expect and will act accordingly. If I overcall 2h on the original posted hand, then I am misleading my partner as to the nature of my hand. If he bids 3N and it fails, it is likely my fault more than his. The other problem is that partner should double 4S on a trump trick and an outside Ace. My hand will come as a sore disappointment to him.

On the other hand if I bid 3H, I have shown the nature of my hand and the final decision is his. This is why I said I would never bid 2H with this opposite an unpassed partner. I suspect we are arguing the same things, maybe I expressed myself badly.

To a large extent this depends on what partner will expect as well. In Whereagle's case obviously partnership agreement is that a 2 level bid can be a hand with a high aggressive and no defensive ratio. That is not the case in any of the partnerships I have ever played. We alway treat pre emptive hands as pre empts and overcalls as overcalls. As to its lead directing qualities, well it is quite likely you will be on lead anyway. You certainly are against a s contract.
Ron

Edit - we are, I just noticed your post above. Hope the flu gets better soon.

[pclayton]

3♥. If you asked me what a weak jump overcall looked like, I would call out this hand. Reasons:

1. Doubleton spade - good! Not as good as a stiff, but xxx and I might pass.
2. 100 honors - nice! protects us from penalties; LHO won't convert with K9xx usually.
3. 4 diamonds - 2-6-4-1 much better than 2632 or even 1633.
4. Stiff club. On a good day, your preempt will lock them out of 6♣.