[hallway]

Back to Basics - this is for Beginners   :

All the text I have read on this subject , so far , says that by Xing you are telling Partner that you have


points, support for the unbid suits (most text suggests 3+ cards for support)  and a shortage in the bid suit.


Non of the text that I have read ,  however, defines 'short' , 'shortage'.

What is a  SHORTAGE  ??

To illustrate my dilemma  -    :-[
I thought an A9 to be a stopper rather than a shortage
I thought 986 to be length/support - not a shortage

( As my Chinese friend would say " thought without learning is dangerous" )

While on the subject of X's   (at least now that I've started to have nightmares about X's I've stopped worrying about No Trumps !!   lol  - please tell me that's progress    :-/  )  

Should a Double over a 3D pre-empt Opener be construed as a Takeout Double or a Penalty Double. ?

If it should be construed as a Takeout Double what kind of structure should the hand have ?

Thanking one and all in anticipation.

Maureen

[easy]

Quote

Back to Basics - this is for Beginners   :

All the text I have read on this subject , so far , says that by Xing you are telling Partner that you have


points, support for the unbid suits (most text suggests 3+ cards for support)  and a shortage in the bid suit.


Non of the text that I have read ,  however, defines 'short' , 'shortage'.

What is a  SHORTAGE  ??

To illustrate my dilemma  -    :-[
I thought an A9 to be a stopper rather than a shortage
I thought 986 to be length/support - not a shortage

( As my Chinese friend would say " thought without learning is dangerous" )

While on the subject of X's   (at least now that I've started to have nightmares about X's I've stopped worrying about No Trumps !!   lol  - please tell me that's progress    :-/  )  

Should a Double over a 3D pre-empt Opener be construed as a Takeout Double or a Penalty Double. ?

If it should be construed as a Takeout Double what kind of structure should the hand have ?

Thanking one and all in anticipation.

Maureen

hi maureen. I dont know your favorite way of learning but mine is by learning from the best. In this instance i would say the best is a book written by Mke Lawrence. Its called Takeout Doubles. This book addresses all of your concerns.

The down and dirty answer to your question is " a takeout double is made with an opening hand and at least 3 cards in all of the unbid suits."
Shortness in the opening bidder's suit is nice but not mandatory. Shorttness means 2 or fewer cards in the suit.

When is a double takeout? if a person has not had a chance to bid a double is takeout. Therefore in your example a double of 3d is takeout.

Again i urge you to get "Takeout Doubles" by Mike Lawrence. He explains it much better than anyone here can

[redguard2]

Yes, Mike Lawrence told everything you need to know about takeout doubles.
I strongly recommend you to read his books.

[inquiry]

Hi

First, double of preempts should be for take-out. This includes not only  3D-DBL, but also 4S-DBL.

Now then, you will hear a lot about support for other suits and the like. For instance, most double 1C holding.

S-KQxxx
H-AJxx
D-Qxx
C-x

It has an opening hand, three card support or better for all suits, and an added bonus, at least four in both majors. I don't double 1C this hand. I overcall 1S. There are several reasons for this. It tells partner I have 5Spades, so he will know how high to compete with 3 card support. If the bidding goes either:

(1C)-1S-(2C)-P-(P)-?,  or
(1C)-1S-(P)-P-(2C)-?

I can now double to show my shape (5S and support for both red suits). So I will bid my five card majors at the one level instead of doubling. Also, I bid reasonable 6 card minors up to the two level rather than doubling with distributions like 1-4-2-6 and 3-3-1-6 where the 1 is in their suit.  

On the other hand, change the cards around a little and give me the same hand pattern and have opener bid 1S

S-x
H-KQxxx
D-AJxx
C-Qxx

(1S)-?

Now I would double, not bid 2H. The reason is my heart suit is not strong enough to risk a two level overcall.

If you don't have a copy of lawrence handy, a nice discussion of how to think about doubles (over opening bids and preempts) can be found in the early part of chapter 5 of the Robson/Segal book on partnership bidding. And the great thing is you can download it for free to your computer, read what they have to say about takeout doubles and see if it applies to you. The rest of the book is probably too deep for a beginner, so I was initially hesitant to suggest it to a thread for beginners, but the part specifically discussing takeout doubles (chapter five, subsection entitled "The take-out double - a commercial break!" starting on page 166 is for anyone. To download a free copy of theis out-of-print book in adobe pdf format, go to http://www.geocities...neill_2000/sys/
Then scroll down to the link to "Robson/Segal notes" link under "more stuff". This file is zipped so you will need one of the pkunzip type programs to decompress it.

[bglover]

This hand just came up and may be illustrative:

AQxx
K10xxx
KX
x

RHO opens 1c, what do you bid?

My partner elected to X, which is not terrible by any means with both majors, and with hts longer than spds, although I personally would bid the 5 card suit.

My hand was this:

Jxx
Axx
xxxx
kq10

I responded 1nt-- showing 6-10 pts and a club stopper (with 11 or a bad 12 I bid 2nt and with a good 12+ i bid 3n absent a good 4 card major).

The problem was this.. over my 1Nt bid opener rebid 2c.. now partner is poorly placed to show her 5 card suit... If she overcalls 2H (as what really happened at the table) that shows a big hand-- more than 16... With 10HCP and Axx of hearts I have an automatic raise to 4, which is too high for this hand.

So, by making the takeout double, which was a definite option, my partner put herself in a bit of a box if I showed some values. She really should not bid 2H over 2C as its an overstatement of her hand. Sure, if I had 6 pts I was probably passing, but if I was at the top of my range I was bidding game.

So, what should she have done after the 2C rebid? She should pass as she has expressed her values with the X. If I have enough to bid again, we will play at the 2 level in either my suit or hearts (I will either bid a competive 2D with xxxx or I will make a balancing x so my partner can show her suit.. that is the actual action i would have taken on this hand with good support for all 3 unbid suits).

Hope that helps some...

[inquiry]

2over1's hand is very close to the example I gave earlier. I would not have doubled 1C (as you can tell from my earlier post), but rather overcalled 1H.

If partner can raise, fine we found a fit. If partner bid 1NT (as 2over1 did) and my opponent overcalled 2C, I would double (still takeout the way I play). If my partner passed and my RHO balanced back with 2C, now I double. The hand solves itself.

2over1's partner ran into the problem after the double with the 2H bid. Now this shows EXTRA values.

[hallway]

THANK YOU one and all  

I will check out our Bridge Club Library this afternoon , hopefully, the books you recommend will be there. If not I will do the download as you suggest , Ben , and I will, ofcourse, print out all the BBF posts for study/discussion.

Our little group will meet on the 15th , the topic -  "Shedding Light Upon the Takeout Double - the BBF way"

What a truly wonderful, fantastic Place Fred has created. A place where gifted people who share his vision GIVE so much to any who ask.

For the past nine months Wayne (Cascade)  8)  has tirelessly held his twice weekly, two hourly Acol mentoring sessions on BBO at no cost to those of us who attend - thankyou   :-*    

AND now there is BBF .

Humbly, Yours
Maureen

(and then there will be Penalty X's and ReDoubling X's and Negative X's and who knows what other X's I haven't even heard of yet     -    one step at a time !! - I knew I should have started learning this game decades ago  :'( )

[redguard2]

Quote

This hand just came up and may be illustrative:

AQxx
K10xxx
KX
x

RHO opens 1c, what do you bid?

My partner elected to X, which is not terrible by any means with both majors, and with hts longer than spds, although I personally would bid the 5 card suit.

My hand was this:

Jxx
Axx
xxxx
kq10

I responded 1nt-- showing 6-10 pts and a club stopper (with 11 or a bad 12 I bid 2nt and with a good 12+ i bid 3n absent a good 4 card major).

The problem was this.. over my 1Nt bid opener rebid 2c.. now partner is poorly placed to show her 5 card suit... If she overcalls 2H (as what really happened at the table) that shows a big hand-- more than 16... With 10HCP and Axx of hearts I have an automatic raise to 4, which is too high for this hand.

So, by making the takeout double, which was a definite option, my partner put herself in a bit of a box if I showed some values. She really should not bid 2H over 2C as its an overstatement of her hand. Sure, if I had 6 pts I was probably passing, but if I was at the top of my range I was bidding game.

So, what should she have done after the 2C rebid? She should pass as she has expressed her values with the X. If I have enough to bid again, we will play at the 2 level in either my suit or hearts (I will either bid a competive 2D with xxxx or I will make a balancing x so my partner can show her suit.. that is the actual action i would have taken on this hand with good support for all 3 unbid suits).

Hope that helps some...

1NT is not bad.
I think your P should not show her H suit.
As for her double. My style is different but I can understand her style.
Her double is OK.

[plum_tree]

I want to add this to what has been said by others: A x followed by bidding a new suit shows a stronger hand. More often than not it implies an unbalanced hand, 2 suited and not 3 suited (or support for all unbid suits).

[Phil]

A ten year necro!

New forum record WD.

[Vampyr]

plum_tree, on 2013-June-14, 07:52, said:

I want to add this to what has been said by others: A x followed by bidding a new suit shows a stronger hand. More often than not it implies an unbalanced hand, 2 suited and not 3 suited (or support for all unbid suits).

Normally this sequence shows a single-suited hand.

[Zelandakh]

plum_tree, on 2013-June-14, 07:52, said:

I want to add this to what has been said by others: A x followed by bidding a new suit shows a stronger hand. More often than not it implies an unbalanced hand, 2 suited and not 3 suited (or support for all unbid suits).

What a takeout double followed by bidding a new suit shows depends on the context of the auction. In some cases, after a 1 level opening for example, it shows a good one-suited hand (GOSH). In others (after a preempt for example) it shows a flexible hand type. Finally, in certain auctions (typically those where a GOSH is impossible) it can be used as a form of scramble showing the other 2 suits. And I will add to the OP's (10 year old) enthusiasm for the site(s) that Fred and co have created (both BBO and BBF) and also give a mention to the part of it that she herself created and is still going strong, the Beginner-Intermediate Lounge (BIL).