[neilkaz]

ahydra, on 2012-November-08, 10:10, said:

Well I think after 6C we have to pass. What was partner's hand?

ahydra

He'd better have a long solid ♣ suit that can play opposite a void or he's missbid. I pass 6♣..GLP and noting that he should slow down the bidding with good hands. Game should allready be forced here after 3♦.

[Phil]

So partner holds void AQxx Kx AKQJxxx.

Nice call!

[jillybean]

I bid 6♥

full hand...

---

[the hog]

jillybean, on 2012-November-08, 17:48, said:

I bid 6♥,

Partner held K,A7542,V,AKQ9764

Potentially missing a 5-3 H fit and possibly playing in a 7-0 fit. Poor bid by partner.

[Cascade]

the hog, on 2012-November-08, 18:09, said:

Potentially missing a 5-3 H fit and possibly playing in a 7-0 fit. Poor bid by partner.

Especially given a more descriptive 3♥ was available several levels lower.

[mikeh]

We have posters claiming that 2♠ is nf, another poster claiming that 2♠ shows exactly 5 spades and another poster claiming that it shows a specific narrow, and modest, range of hcp but is forcing.

At the risk of blowing my own horn, and those whose comments added to mine, those players should go read the pinned thread on reverses.

On the given hand, I would bid 2♠ because it shows the 5th spade, is unconditionally forcing 1 round, and is completely unlimited in strength.

I would plan on bidding a natural, forcing 3♦ over 2N by partner.

I would raise 3♥ to 4♥

I would bid 3N over 3♣

Note that the only way I find diamonds is when partner is 1=4=3=5, but I can live with that.

As it is, over 6♣ passing is the only logical call in my opinion. Partner cannot hold 5♥ and not rebid 3♥, at least not if he any idea how to bid. Having said that, bidding freaks is tough for most people. Partner should be 1=4=1=7 or some 7420 or maybe even a 3 card heart suit. Partner should have a suit that offers an excellent play for no losers. Bidding 6♥ risks a 4-3 with the long trump being tapped or, even worse, a 3-3 fit, with opener say 2=3=1=7 just shy of opening 2♣.

[Stephen Tu]

mikeh, on 2012-November-08, 18:54, said:

We have posters claiming that 2♠ is nf, another poster claiming that 2♠ shows exactly 5 spades and another poster claiming that it shows a specific narrow, and modest, range of hcp but is forcing.

At the risk of blowing my own horn, and those whose comments added to mine, those players should go read the pinned thread on reverses.

On the given hand, I would bid 2♠ because it shows the 5th spade, is unconditionally forcing 1 round, and is completely unlimited in strength.

It obviously depends on system. In BWS, and a lot of other reverse schemes, 2 spades is nearly auto on 5 spades, is 1RF, and unlimited, as mikeh plays. I also play this way, and I think a very large % of the BW experts play this way (won the poll by a lot, not by a little). It has an advantage of making opener's rebid more meaningful as he gains lots more choices below 3nt. If you have to bid 3d to force with 5+ spades and without a fit for partner's suits, 3h/3s become less shape specific since if opener isn't appropriate for 3nt but wants to keep that possibility in play he has to bid one of those. If 2s is forcing, opener can bid 3h with 5h, 3s/4s unambiguously with 3s, 2nt/3c/3nt nf nat, and 3d to probe with other hands unsuitable for other actions (e.g. GF with long clubs, no diamond stopper). But over 3d, opener has fewer choices, so 3h shouldn't guarantee a 5th heart.

But playing 2s as weak NF is certainly possible, and can gain particularly with a light responding style combined with a light-reversing style, as 2s certainly can be the last making spot. I personally don't think this advantage comes up enough to compensate for using up valuable space with stronger hands and degrading your accuracy on those.

[dbsboy]

May I raise a question, partner may not even have 4 card hearts in this auction (1C-1S-2H-3D-6C) right?

[the hog]

dbsboy, on 2012-November-09, 23:32, said:

May I raise a question, partner may not even have 4 card hearts in this auction (1C-1S-2H-3D-6C) right?

Wrong!

[mike777]

Stephen Tu, on 2012-November-08, 20:05, said:

It obviously depends on system. In BWS, and a lot of other reverse schemes, 2 spades is nearly auto on 5 spades, is 1RF, and unlimited, as mikeh plays. I also play this way, and I think a very large % of the BW experts play this way (won the poll by a lot, not by a little). It has an advantage of making opener's rebid more meaningful as he gains lots more choices below 3nt. If you have to bid 3d to force with 5+ spades and without a fit for partner's suits, 3h/3s become less shape specific since if opener isn't appropriate for 3nt but wants to keep that possibility in play he has to bid one of those. If 2s is forcing, opener can bid 3h with 5h, 3s/4s unambiguously with 3s, 2nt/3c/3nt nf nat, and 3d to probe with other hands unsuitable for other actions (e.g. GF with long clubs, no diamond stopper). But over 3d, opener has fewer choices, so 3h shouldn't guarantee a 5th heart.

But playing 2s as weak NF is certainly possible, and can gain particularly with a light responding style combined with a light-reversing style, as 2s certainly can be the last making spot. I personally don't think this advantage comes up enough to compensate for using up valuable space with stronger hands and degrading your accuracy on those.

I prefer 2s as 5+ weakish but forcing one round.

It is nice that responder limits her hand.

granted this sets up an ugly 3d 4sf with gf hands and 5s but gf hands tend to be rare.

I note BBO forum tends to open and reverse rather than open 2c on 2 suited hands which creates more reverse type auctions.

but 3h or 3s over 3d should be pretty clear and not confusing as you suggest.

3h indeed should indeed promise 5h.


this will just make the set of problem hands smaller...over 3d

[Stephen Tu]

mike777, on 2012-November-10, 00:31, said:

I prefer 2s as 5+ weakish but forcing one round.

It is nice that responder limits her hand.

granted this sets up an ugly 3d 4sf with gf hands and 5s but gf hands tend to be rare.

I don't understand why you think this is ever a gain. Opener can limit their hand, both shape and strength on the next round of bidding, responder can then usually place the contract. Please post a sequence where you think responder limiting their hand really helps opener significantly, vs. opener simply finishing description and responder placing the contract.

If you are going to play 2s as forcing, I don't really see auctions where you are really gaining from it being limited to make up for the awkward 3d 4sf and making opener's rebid less descriptive.

Quote

but 3h or 3s over 3d should be pretty clear and not confusing as you suggest.

3h indeed should indeed promise 5h.

You have say Jx AKJx xx AKQxx or - AKjx xxx AKQxxx. bidding starts 1c-1s-2h-3d!. What do you want these hands to bid?

[mike777]

4c on hand 2...


hand one is a problem as i said....I might open 2d mexican or one club...

if one club then I think 3nt is forced. granted 3d is art/gf

--


I feel uneasy with the weaker hand placing the contract as you suggest as a general style of play.

given if as on bbo forums you tend to open and reverse with strong 2 suited hands rather than 2c then opener will not limit her hand with her next bid.

Opener can limit their hand, both shape and strength on the next round of bidding, responder can then usually place the contract.

As I said i prefer resp. limit her hand if possible.

[Fluffy]

dbsboy, on 2012-November-09, 23:32, said:

May I raise a question, partner may not even have 4 card hearts in this auction (1C-1S-2H-3D-6C) right?

I don't think this bidding exists (the 6♣ bid with 4♣ forcing avaible), but yes, 2♥ might not have hearts in most styles, althou it is more normal to reverse into diamonds rather than a major having both fake reverses avaible, with 3 hearts and singleton diamond 2♥ its better description.

[mike777]

Fluffy, on 2012-November-10, 04:14, said:

I don't think this bidding exists (the 6♣ bid with 4♣ forcing avaible), but yes, 2♥ might not have hearts in most styles, althou it is more normal to reverse into diamonds rather than a major having both fake reverses avaible, with 3 hearts and singleton diamond 2♥ its better description.

ya at some point with a long...strong minor suit you need to open 2c and not reverse into a fake suit....

on bbo forum we can debate where the border lineis


the cool thing is.... a true bbo expert forum player may play us(nonexpert) as weaker....3 loser hand when we open 2c...with a second suit

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jillybean, on 2012-November-08, 17:48, said:

I bid 6♥

full hand...

---

Reviewing:
1C - 1S
2H - 2S! ( 5+, GF - - I think many agree with this )
3H ( agree too ) - 3S! ( advance cue - - how many would really do this?? )
5D! ( voidwood for ♥- - Really ?? ) - 6H

[Stephen Tu]

mike777, on 2012-November-10, 01:17, said:

4c on hand 2...

hand one is a problem as i said....I might open 2d mexican or one club...

if one club then I think 3nt is forced. granted 3d is art/gf

So you give up on 3nt / play 3nt without stoppers / play 3nt with lead going through partner's diamond honor(s). Wonderful.

Quote

I feel uneasy with the weaker hand placing the contract as you suggest as a general style of play.

As I said i prefer resp. limit her hand if possible.

So you "feel uneasy" and "prefer". What a weak hand-wavy argument. How about actually constructing hands and bidding where this actually hurts you? Even though one prefers to open 2 suited hands with 1 instead of 2, there still is some upper limit to this. And the only hand you are really possibly gaining on is very, very strong 5-6 or 6-7 heart/club hands too strong for 1c-1s-2h-2s-4h. These are going to be incredibly rare, and arguably you should open 2c on these anyway. Even if you don't, you are going to be losing a lot on the much more common hands where responder is stronger and gets a less descriptive rebid from opener.

There's a reason you are the only one I've ever seen advocating 2s as forcing but limited. When are the gains? Think about all the other situations where we gladly play responder's bid as unlimited. 1c-1s. 1s-2d. Generally if you have a lower forcing bid, it is more efficient to use it, to leave more room for both parties in further bidding, unless the higher bid can describe something that is very hard to describe later. Having an extra king over your min range after a reverse sequence is not a problem. You just bid game if partner shows a non-gf reverse. If partner GF even if you could still have 5/6, then make a slam try if your points are fitting.

Your preference seem to be that of someone who doesn't trust partner's ability to evaluate a somewhat weaker hand despite opener having given a fairly complete accurate description.

[mike777]

Actually what i describe is called Structured Reverses by Root-Pavlicek.

It is something I was taught, I did not invent them.

I dont accept that the stronger gf hands are common for responder. In practice I find them pretty rare/

I think it is more importand the weaker hand give a fairly accurate description, I understand you dont.

Not sure why you feel opener, the strong hand. is not describing his hand pretty well most of the time.

Again I grant when responder makes a 4sf bid of 3d, rare but possible, you can have problems....in any event no problem this time as opener has an easy 3h bid.

After a 2/1 I expect responder to have the stronger hand much more often than opener.

[Stephen Tu]

mike777, on 2012-November-11, 06:43, said:

I dont accept that the stronger gf hands are common for responder. In practice I find them pretty rare/

No, it's not that stronger hands are common at all. That's irrelevant. It's how accurately that you bid when they do come up that matters. Maybe you don't notice the flaws of chewing up more space since you don't do it very often, besides that fact that a reasonably high percent of the time both methods will eventually stumble into the same contract, it doesn't end up mattering. Perhaps you bid 2s so often, not having a strong hand, that you don't notice that it would have worked fine/better doing so with stronger hands as well.

Quote

I think it is more importand the weaker hand give a fairly accurate description, I understand you dont.

You think so, but you aren't explaining *why* this this the case. Come up with an example auction. The thing is, in my view the weaker hand is *not* giving an accurate description in the 4th suit case, because the shape is rather unknown, as well as holding in the 4th suit, you only have negative inferences available. Not 3 clubs, not 4 hearts. So responder could be 5332, 5341, 5242, 5251, 5152, plus 6 cd spades if you have suit quality requirements, plus various hands with 4 spades if you are also restricting the strength of 2nt as Root/Pavlicek do. That hardly seems like a fairly accurate description! All for the gain of 10+ pts rather than 6+ points? Meanwhile, opener, having shown two suits, has a considerable head start in making a complete shape & strength description, especially when given maximum room in which to make the most descriptive call.

Quote

Not sure why you feel opener, the strong hand. is not describing his hand pretty well most of the time.

I suppose it depends how freely you like to reach 4nt rather than 3nt. If opener rebids 4c freely, or can raise 4th suit as a punt, then opener can describe reasonably accurately. You are using the 4 level bids to replace the space you gave up by bidding 3d instead of 2s. But to me, reaching 4nt routinely on 10 opposite 17, or lighter, if you like a lighter reverse, is inevitably going to lead to the horrific 4nt -1 on a # of hands. Plus, if responder needs to be able to bid 4nt to play, you make it harder for them to engineer a keycard ask when they really want to do that rather than play 4nt. And again, in exchange for gains when? Presumably when responder has the limited 2s call, both methods reach the same spot, because opener assumes responder weak and rebids accordingly. So you have to demonstrate hands where a strong responder reaches a superior contract using the 4sf auction, that is hard to reach just bidding a forcing 2s. You have failed to do so, you just have stated meaningless things like "I prefer responder limits their hand".

If opener tries to avoid bypassing 3nt, then your description gets less accurate.