[32519]

manudude03, on 2012-November-10, 09:44, said:

This (not so) crazy idea may actually work. This completely random deal recently came up at the table. This was the actual hand and the bidding:

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manudude03, on 2012-November-10, 11:00, said:

Oops (btw what reason does East have for doubling 6D in your auction anyway?)

Nice! In your diagram you have flipped the SA and the HK and now you have fooled antonylee (maybe some others as well).

antonylee, on 2012-November-10, 20:01, said:

I'd rather not be in 6♦ on that deal anyways

manudude03, on 2012-November-10, 11:00, said:

Also, one of the big things about 3N showing a good pre-empt is that it allows you to play 3N. Your scheme doesn't seem to allow that.

Every partnership is free to agree on whatever they wish. Leaving 3NT in (the old Gambling 3NT) will be according to your bidding style. The big downside here is that 3NT more often than not gets played from the wrong side of the table. If the E/W hands were reversed as in the diagram below, 3NT fails by 3 tricks on the ♥J lead followed by the ♥2. I understand that these sorts of bad results were the main reason by many dumped the Gambling 3NT in favour of something else.

---

[RunemPard]

Switch the ♥K with the ♥A and the ♠A with the ♠K and you just missed the usually better scoring 3NT game.

Not to mention that on the hand you gave, South does not even have a Gambling 3NT opening. (Not that Gambling is all that great anyways.)

[manudude03]

32519, on 2012-November-10, 23:40, said:

Nice! In your diagram you have flipped the SA and the HK and now you have fooled antonylee (maybe some others as well).

You've missed the point. The bidding is likely to be the exact same (assuming you didn't make up the meanings to fit the hands). And now not only are you off 2 aces, you don't have any extra chances (other than the huge amount of luck needed in the original!) even if you get the spade away somehow.

[antonylee]

Actually I had the right hand (with the ♠A). Well it is still a pretty bad slam: you go down on a 3-0 break, on a 2=1 break with the ♣A offside, and even on a 1=2 break with the ♣A onside you will be in trouble (if East ducks the first club, you still have two club losers in hand). So at best half of the 2-1 breaks (and I may have missed other stuff), which is less than 50%.

[32519]

I can't agree with either of you. Not every slam bid has a 100% guarantee of making. A bad trump break or a crucial card in the wrong defenders hand has defeated many a slam. If every slam bid had a 100% guarantee of making, a lot fewer slams would be bid.

[RunemPard]

Just a random thought...

I typically play 2NT as minors or majors, weak...

Would using 2NT to show a poor 6+ card minor suit and 3♣/3♦ as a good suit be of any value? Or does it just say too much to the opponents...or invert the meanings to allow for a stop in 2NT.
Inverting the meanings would also have the benefit of opponents having no chance to double for investigating NT.

My thoughts are about making it more clear for partner about trying 3NT or the minor.

[manudude03]

32519, on 2012-November-11, 22:20, said:

I can't agree with either of you. Not every slam bid has a 100% guarantee of making. A bad trump break or a crucial card in the wrong defenders hand has defeated many a slam. If every slam bid had a 100% guarantee of making, a lot fewer slams would be bid.

No-one said anything about slams needing to be 100%. Your slam (before I modified it to be off 2 cashers) is about 8% I think... and probably lower.

Say you were vulnerable at imps, you would gain 13 if you bid and made it while losing 13 if the slam failed. So you would need the slam to be at least 50% before it has a positive EV.

[32519]

Flipping the ♠A and the ♥K as in your diagram changes the auction. Now slam won't even enter the picture. The auction will proceed like this:
3NT = any hand willing to bid game on its own
4♣ = what is your suit?
4♦ = ♦ is my suit
4♥ = Ace and King in two different suits (♥A)
5♦ = signoff, the ♥A helps me nothing, I have a void in the suit

[manudude03]

And what do you do with an ace, but no king (say AQJxx xxxx xx Jx?)

[32519]

OK, so I’ve been looking at the 4NT opening as well. What follows is an attempted summary of what others use the bid for (or suggest it be used for):

hrothgar, on 2012-November-07, 19:09, said:

4NT Opening
An excellent eight or nine card minor
Sound playing values for the five-level (9+ playing tricks)
No more than one loser in any suit

(This certainly has merit. However I will choose to put this hand type through my 3NT bid even if it does go down).

Vampyr, on 2012-November-07, 22:32, said:

4NT specific Aces
5NT 1-loser hand, void in both majors
And if truth be told, I need to confirm with my regular partner, but we probably play 5M as the old-fashioned looking for top honours.

4NT specific Aces I found this link. The probability of being dealt hands which meet this criteria are remote.
5NT 1-loser hand, void in both majors (Void in both majors is so rare that it doesn’t register a frequency % in BBOs deal generator, but no harm in having it as part of your agreements as I cannot think of any other use for the bid).
And if truth be told, I need to confirm with my regular partner, but we probably play 5M as the old-fashioned looking for top honours (This also makes sense as a corollary to the 4NT specific Ace ask. Now you have 11 tricks missing the top 2 honours in the suit bid asking partner if he has them. 6M = I got 1, 7M = I got both).

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-08, 05:04, said:

The 4NT opening is another one that gets discussed to death on BBF. There have also been numerous threads on this in the last year. The traditional meaning is a specific ace ask. Several top pairs use ot as some kind of extreme 2-suiter. I have not seen hrothgar's idea before but it seems to make sense as an alternative.

Cascade, on 2012-November-08, 13:38, said:

4NT both minors at least 5=6

The probability of being dealt a hand which meets this criteria is 0.29%.

deannz, on 2012-November-08, 21:38, said:

4N = good preempt (doesn;t come up often but clarifies 5m) as per Preempts from A-Z.

[f0rdy]

RunemPard, on 2012-November-12, 03:53, said:

Just a random thought...

I typically play 2NT as minors or majors, weak...

Would using 2NT to show a poor 6+ card minor suit and 3♣/3♦ as a good suit be of any value? Or does it just say too much to the opponents...or invert the meanings to allow for a stop in 2NT.
Inverting the meanings would also have the benefit of opponents having no chance to double for investigating NT.

My thoughts are about making it more clear for partner about trying 3NT or the minor.

We played this for a while, and it wasn't obviously brilliant; I think we got to one or two good 3NT contracts after the "good" 3m openings which we might not have otherwise, but with the "bad" openers you both tell them that your hand is definitely bad, and give them an extra half or full round of bidding to decide whether to penalise you.

[ash1968]

32519, on 2012-November-07, 23:25, said:

Regarding the 2NT opening bid, these are the choices that I am currently aware of (no doubt there are plenty of others as well):
1. A standard strong balanced hand promising 20-21 HCP. In this thread Too Many 2NT Contracts are Going Down, after going down enough times myself, partner and I are starting to look for some other use for the 2NT bid.
2. 5/5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP. I’m not a fan of this opening as it is just too easy to defend against. Also it tells the opponents the hand layout making it easy for them to bid and make thin games in either major.
3. 5/5 in the majors and 8-12 HCP as played by Blue Team Club. The probability of being dealt a hand which meets this criteria stands at 0.43%. The biggest criticism that I have heard against this method is: “Why pre-empt your own side when you hold both majors?” The answer given is that, a) with 5/5 in the majors it is normal to open with 1♠ and then repeat the ♥ suit twice to show the 5/5 holding, and b) you want to avoid partner bidding 3NT when your hand is low in HCP.
4. Undisciplined 3-level pre-empt in either minor.
5. T-Rex (Martin Reid/Peter Newell from New Zealand) use it to show 2-9 HCP and a 6-card ♣ suit.

Does anyone know of other uses for a 2NT opening? Once I know what all my choices are I can try something different to a standard 20-21 HCP balanced hand.

Regarding Newell/Reid they play 3C as a constructive 6+ card suit because of their other openings (strongish 1C, 9-13 openings including 1S showing diamonds or diamonds and clubs - they use 2C/2D for 4/4 style preempts). BTW it is not T-Rex which is very different. Regards, Stephen

[antonylee]

32519, on 2012-November-11, 22:20, said:

I can't agree with either of you. Not every slam bid has a 100% guarantee of making. A bad trump break or a crucial card in the wrong defenders hand has defeated many a slam. If every slam bid had a 100% guarantee of making, a lot fewer slams would be bid.

Let's test that:

$ redeal -N'KJT862 A98 J8 82' -S'5 - AKT75432 KQ97' --initial 'self.makes=0' --do 'self.makes += deal.dd_score("6DS") > 0' --final 'print(self.makes)' -n10000
2
$ redeal -N'AJT862 K98 J8 82' -S'5 - AKT75432 KQ97' --initial 'self.makes=0' --do 'self.makes += deal.dd_score("6DS") > 0' --final 'print(self.makes)' -n10000
1285

A bit better than estimated by mandude but not much.

[32519]

32519, on 2012-November-10, 08:30, said:

A further refinement (or better refinement?) of this could be something like this –
1. A direct bid of any suit other than 4♣ can be used to show the A and K in the suit bid with nothing to show anywhere else. The 3NT opener can use this information and bid game or slam directly now depending on whether the suit shown fits the rest of his hand e.g. AK opposite a void helps nothing. However AK opposite 2 small cards in the suit makes the slam easy.
2. A direct bid of 4NT can be used to show any two Aces and nothing else. Opener’s decision will now be to bid the small slam or the grand slam as the 3NT opening bid already showed a hand strong enough to bid game on its own.
3. The 4♣ bid would then show a hand with either, a) no slam potential wanting to signoff in game, or, b) a hand with an A and K in two different suits still leaving the door open for a slam try but able to signoff at the 5-level if necessary.

Any thoughts?

OK, so partner and I decided to experiment with this bid and see what happens. Tonight we had this auction:

---

1. 3NT was alerted as "any hand willing to bid game on its own."
2. 4♣ asked for partner's real suit
3. 4♥ showed the real suit
4. 4NT showed an Ace in a lower ranking suit and a king in any suit, still allowing a 5-level signoff if necessary
5. 6♥ = "this is reckless as this is something new we are experimenting with" [With the 4NT bid, partner knew that our side held all the Aces and blasted into 6♥ which admittedly, was very lucky]

I am the first to acknowledge that this sequence was reckless, but hey, we made the contract. 6♠ should also make.

[antonylee]

6♠ is better (you can handle a bad heart break, and you need the spades to come for one loser in any case) and would be reached on a pedestrian sequence such as 1♥-1♠-4♦-keycard-3keys-6♠.

[RunemPard]

P-1H
1S-4D*(splinter)
4N-5D*(0-3)
6S(meh...)

or ask the queen if you are not feeling very lucky...but meh again...

♦A, 5 trumps, 2 card for partner's major..minor king...I would give it a go...

[PhilKing]

My head has literally just exploded.

[manudude03]

Not only is the bidding sequence reckless, you just bid the slam with absolutely no clue as to whether 6 had no play (xxxx x AKxx xxxx- feel free to put the king in clubs instead if that hand had bid 4D before) or 7 was cold (Kx xxxx Axxx xxx).

[32519]

Post 22, an attempted summary of what others use the 3NT bid for, has been copied in here a second time:

PhilKing, on 2012-November-07, 12:54, said:

I don't play it myself, but 3NT showing a hand too good to open 4M is very popular amongst the top American players.

hrothgar, on 2012-November-07, 19:09, said:

3NT Opening: Good 4 Level Preempt in either major

relknes, on 2012-November-07, 19:56, said:

3N is a "gambling 3N" showing a solid 7+ minor and no outside A or K.

gwnn, on 2012-November-08, 03:01, said:

It is the smaller cousin of 3NT=6H, 5+m, weakish.

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-08, 05:04, said:

The 3NT opening has also been discussed to death.
I quite like playing it as a good 4m preempt because it unloads the 3m opening somewhat but the good 4m preempt is much more popular.
Inter alia, other options here are a running minor (Gambling) with or without something outside; any 4m opening; Namyats in either major; some sort of 2-suiter; or a specific ace ask.

Other possibilities could be:
1. 3NT as a natural 24-25 HCP hand. Most would put these hand types through the strong 2♣ bid.
2. 5/5 or 6/5 in the minors and 11+ HCP (versus 2NT showing 5/5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP)

My 3NT bid is still vacant. Of the possibilities listed here, it makes sense (to me anyway) to use the one with the highest frequency of occurrence. Does anyone know what the frequency of occurrence of the above listed hand patterns are?

Maybe you have a better alternative use for the 3NT bid not listed here?

Thanks again in advance.

[glen]

32519, on 2013-March-28, 11:07, said:

... Maybe you have a better alternative use for the 3NT bid not listed here? ...

If you have time to read a thread with almost 200 postings, you can read about the complex "convention" 3NT to play here:

http://www.bridgebas...3nt-as-to-play/