[onoway]

---

Needless to say this was a disaster. Obviously west (me) is too weak to bid again but I thought p had a huge hand and didn't like ♠, so with a 5 card suit (however feeble) and a singleton in opp's suit I thought better to give options. Clearly I should have passed. But the hand brings up a question which I've run into fairly often.

Would it have been reasonable at some point for p to bid his ♣ suit? wouldn't that have shown the same values as 2nt? not trying to shift responsibility here, but wanting clarification as to why/if 2nt was better than 3♣.

I understand to some degree the logic when the suit is a minor because of the possibility of 3nt vs 5(minor) game. (Though I still think that making a minor suit game is better than going down in 3nt). But it seems that even when it's a major people bid nt rather than their suit after they've Xd. I tend to think if people don't bid a 5+ card suit it's because they don't have one..(not to open, but in subsequent bidding). I really hate it when partners do this so would like to understand why this is apparently the "correct" thing these days.

[ggwhiz]

Stick to your guns.

Double was eccentric
2nt was insane
passing 3♦ instead of preferring spades was from another galaxy.

[mike777]

prefer to overcall 1nt vul given pard is a passed hand and get this hand off my chest...

[sfi]

mike777, on 2012-November-05, 21:10, said:

prefer to overcall 1nt vul given pard is a passed hand and get this hand off my chest...

How does 1NT come close to describing a control-rich 19 count with a 5 card suit? The auction looks perfectly normal through 3D. After that, it should continue 3S-3NT, IMO. 3NT is a fine spot.

Alternative auctions include raising 2NT to 3, or for East to bid 3C after which West can ask for a heart stopper.

[inquiry]

The 1nt overcall suggested above can not be considered, as this hand is way too strong for that.

I prefer a simple 2♣ overcall and if that is passed out, so be it.

If partner raises to 3♣, we will play either 3NT, 5♣ or 6♣, or should north bid 3♥ over 3♣, then 3♥x. Six clubs isn't a horrible contract, but it will not make.

If partner passes and North bids 2♥, unfortunately for me, my double would be "takeout", so I would bid a "strong" 2NT. Hopefully partner would correct to 3NT.

Given the initial double followed by 2NT, partner is showing a strong hand, over 3♦, he should bid 3NT or 4♠ at imps.

[wank]

East is too strong for a simple overcall, so i don't object to east's bidding too much aside from his final pass which is silly with a 2 card disparity.

Your partner's x followed by NT showed about 19-21 and you had enough to try 3NT which would be a fine contract. Your 3D bid would be fine if you had nothing in terms of HCP, trying to find the best part score.

[Codo]

AS Wank, I do not agree with the first comments. X was right, 2 NT at least a good describtion. He now showed a hand with around 19 HCPS and hearts well covered.
You have no business in bidding the diamonds, what is wrong with playing in NT?

Partners last pass was silly too. Of course he played you for a kind of 3163 hand, where you tried to stay low with 1 ♠? Excentric at least.

[Fluffy]

The reason why partner didn't bid 3♣ instead of 2NT is because he has a very good stopper in hearts that you don't. If he bds 3♣ you will have to pass some intermediate hands with no heart stop since you can't see any game in sight. 2NT is a distortion but it is a practical one to reach 3NT wich is what partner has in mind.

[helene_t]

onoway, on 2012-November-05, 19:29, said:

Obviously west (me) is too weak to bid again

No, if anything you are too strong. 3♦ is a sign-off. You could consider bidding 3NT. Pass or 3♦ are ok, too.

[mike777]

1nt=ok

x and 2nt wins hand or does not win hand...geez...close

see posts

[Cyberyeti]

X followed by 2N shows a hand too strong to overcall 1N with hearts well covered.

You've bid xxxx, x, xxxxxx, xx not the 5 count you actually have by my methods. I would either pass 2N or bid 3N.

The only chance to bid clubs is if you are not too strong to overcall 2♣ in the first place.

[Codo]

mike777, on 2012-November-06, 04:23, said:

1nt=ok

x and 2nt wins hand or does not win hand...geez...close

see posts

No 1 NT is not ok. Do you think that it is ok to pay 4,99 $ for a McMenu if they sell it for 6,99$?
Do you think it is okay to open this hand 1 NT if you play any of the usual ranges for opening 1 NT?

X and 2 NT shows this strength and it is NOT close.

[mike777]

i said close..geeZ..close means close...

in any event x and 2nt did not win hand

I will let you decide what a vul 1nt overcall shows....

clearly everyone wins hand at the bar but not at the table.

[ahydra]

I like X then 2NT by East, but his final pass is more than a little silly (why not 4S!). West should just keep it simple and bid 3NT instead of 3D.

ahydra

[PhilKing]

I have no idea why West would not simply raise to 3NT. East's pass of 3♦ was Quixotic, but that is by the by.

[Zelandakh]

We have another thread where almost everbody is very positive about treating a hand with a singleton ace or king as balanced. As an overcall one is often a little more offshape than with an opening bid and yet here there are many more voices against treating the East hand as a balanced 19-21. Why is that? Anyway, as others have said, West can simply raise 2NT to 3. A direct 1NT overcall with this East hand would be ... different.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2012-November-06, 08:32, said:

We have another thread where almost everbody is very positive about treating a hand with a singleton ace or king as balanced. As an overcall one is often a little more offshape than with an opening bid and yet here there are many more voices against treating the East hand as a balanced 19-21. Why is that? Anyway, as others have said, West can simply raise 2NT to 3. A direct 1NT overcall with this East hand would be ... different.

This is fine if it's 19-21, a fair number of people overcall 1N on 15-17 so it would be 18-19 or maybe 20 so pass would be in the frame.

[onoway]

helene_t, on 2012-November-06, 04:03, said:

No, if anything you are too strong. 3♦ is a sign-off. You could consider bidding 3NT. Pass or 3♦ are ok, too.

ok now I am confused about something else. Isn't a new suit by responder forcing one round? That pass is the only bid by my p that I had an issue with (aside from wondering how we could find the ♣fit) but since I thought that I should have passed 2nt it was my fault anyway.

Several people have said that I had enough to raise to 3nt but if we don't have a suit to run and must depend on sheer hcps, then my thought was that 5 + (possibly) 19 doesn't quite make it. It does on this hand but as a general rule a)aren't you suppose to have at least 25 between hands to bid 3nt and more to bid suit game and b)with only 5 hcps aren't I telling a story I've already told to bid again? Wouldn't p be entitled to think I am stronger than I actually am?

[Quartic]

onoway, on 2012-November-06, 14:42, said:

Several people have said that I had enough to raise to 3nt but if we don't have a suit to run and must depend on sheer hcps, then my thought was that 5 + (possibly) 19 doesn't quite make it. It does on this hand but as a general rule a)aren't you suppose to have at least 25 between hands to bid 3nt and more to bid suit game and b)with only 5 hcps aren't I telling a story I've already told to bid again? Wouldn't p be entitled to think I am stronger than I actually am?

I think the general rule is with 25+ you want to be in game, and with 24 you don't mind if you're in or out. Your bidding before 3♦ hasn't promised any values - your partner forced you to bid with his double, so you could have 0 points for 1♠. I think if you bid 3NT (instead of 3♦), your partner should expect you to have about a 5-7 count.

[Codo]

onoway, on 2012-November-06, 14:42, said:

ok now I am confused about something else. Isn't a new suit by responder forcing one round? That pass is the only bid by my p that I had an issue with (aside from wondering how we could find the ♣fit) but since I thought that I should have passed 2nt it was my fault anyway.

Several people have said that I had enough to raise to 3nt but if we don't have a suit to run and must depend on sheer hcps, then my thought was that 5 + (possibly) 19 doesn't quite make it. It does on this hand but as a general rule a)aren't you suppose to have at least 25 between hands to bid 3nt and more to bid suit game and b)with only 5 hcps aren't I telling a story I've already told to bid again? Wouldn't p be entitled to think I am stronger than I actually am?

The opening bid from them makes playing the hand so much easier that you need much less to make 3 NT, espacially with your strong hand sitting behind the opening bid, so 24 is more then enough.

3♦ is forcing. With a hand where you just want to play diamonds, you had started with 2 ♦ not 1 ♠.