[jerdonald]

BBO Forum,

Standard American.

My partner and I use a weak jump shift after an opening of
1 of a suit to show less than 6 points and a 6/7 card suit.
With this bid we can't use Bergen raises. Anyone know how
often hands show up that can bid a weak jump shift vs hands
that can bid Bergen raises?

jerdonald

[blackshoe]

Offhand, I don't. I submit, though, that's it's not just a question of frequency, but also one of whether your systemic emphasis should be on getting to good games and slams, or on winning the partscore battle. Personally, I like the former.

[aguahombre]

blackshoe, on 2012-November-01, 20:33, said:

I submit, though, that's it's not just a question of frequency, but also one of whether your systemic emphasis should be on getting to good games and slams, or on winning the partscore battle. Personally, I like the former.

More to it than that, I believe. Throw in the frequency with which your game/slam bidding with a fit for the major does just as well or better than the Bergen People do. Then you might decide you are pretty much having your cake and eating it too.

[mike777]

edit.

[Siegmund]

Without commenting on the other merits of the method... weak jump shifts are the least common to be held, of all the popular jump responses. They are noticeably less common than disciplined (Soloway) strong jump shifts, which in turn are noticeably less common than Bergen raises.

I was not willing to give them up until I did a dealing simulation myself to prove how rare they were.

[barmar]

You don't have to give up WJS totally to play Bergen. You can just play them only when jumping to the 2 level.

[S2000magic]

barmar, on 2012-November-02, 12:52, said:

You don't have to give up WJS totally to play Bergen. You can just play them only when jumping to the 2 level.

Wouldn't that limit the WJS to the specific auction 1♥ - 2♠?

Or are we including minor suit openings (to which Bergen raises don't apply)?

[barmar]

S2000magic, on 2012-November-02, 14:38, said:

Wouldn't that limit the WJS to the specific auction 1♥ - 2♠?

Or are we including minor suit openings (to which Bergen raises don't apply)?

Good point. I guess you could also have 1♠-3♥, which isn't a Bergen Raise.

Bergen Raises also conflict with Strong Jump Shifts, although if you're playing 2/1 I suppose it's easy to choose Bergen as the meaning.

[wank]

there's a question of definition here. in England at least, a weak jump shift is played as about 4-8. this makes more sense to us, as now repeating your suit is invitational, i.e. about 9-11, meaning we can stay low on misfitting invitational hands. it also has the added advantage of being considerably more frequent than what i understand is the very weak american style of weak jump.

[CarlRitner]

wank, on 2012-November-02, 16:53, said:

there's a question of definition here. in England at least, a weak jump shift is played as about 4-8. this makes more sense to us, as now repeating your suit is invitational, i.e. about 9-11, meaning we can stay low on misfitting invitational hands. it also has the added advantage of being considerably more frequent than what i understand is the very weak american style of weak jump.

I think the idea here (USA) is that a lower level WJS (1x - 2y) denies the values for a simple 1-level response (2 or 3 to 5), but 1y - 3x is more like 5 or 6 to 9. That's just one treatment of many I am sure.

[blackshoe]

BTW, Bergen isn't the only method that uses some jump shifts to show major suit raises.There's Hardy Raises, and Romex has its own structure.

[barmar]

blackshoe, on 2012-November-02, 22:57, said:

BTW, Bergen isn't the only method that uses some jump shifts to show major suit raises.There's Hardy Raises, and Romex has its own structure.

True. The real question being posed by the thread is "natural versus artificial jump shifts".

[32519]

jerdonald, on 2012-November-01, 20:25, said:

My partner and I use a weak jump shift after an opening of 1 of a suit to show less than 6 points and a 6/7 card suit. With this bid we can't use Bergen raises.

Bidding this way actually has some merit; it makes it a lot harder for the opponents to enter the auction. The player’s hand making the jump bid is completely useless defensively. The only use is offensively. Partner may not have anything to help in the suit bid, but partner, via the opening bid has already indicated trick taking value in the other suits.

So now the bidding goes: 1♠-P-3♥-?
The 3♥ bid showing a 7-card suit and 4-6 HCP. The opponents have both majors covered and now you are forced to enter the auction in the minor suits on level 4. The opener’s hand is still unlimited. If you double, is it for penalty or takeout?

[PhilKing]

wank, on 2012-November-02, 16:53, said:

there's a question of definition here. in England at least, a weak jump shift is played as about 4-8. this makes more sense to us, as now repeating your suit is invitational, i.e. about 9-11, meaning we can stay low on misfitting invitational hands. it also has the added advantage of being considerably more frequent than what i understand is the very weak american style of weak jump.

Is 4-8 more frequent? A lot of hands at the lower end point-wise have a terrible suit and certainly can't make a 3-level WJS.

9, 10 and 11 point hands are much more likely a priori - not sure how much partner opening changes it.

Back to OPs method, hands with 0-5 points suitable for a 3-level WJS are very rare and the preemptive value is overstated. There's a reason why the method has fallen out of fashion. Having said that, Bergen is losing popularity as well.

[jerdonald]

BBO Forum,
There are a lot of good points made in response to my post
but no one has answered the original question. How often do
these type of hands occur?

PhilKing says WJS hands are very rare and Bergen is falling
out of favor. Are we going back to Strong(18+) jump shifts?

jerdonald

[awm]

Here are some frequencies. I didn't place any requirement on suit quality here so your numbers may vary.

Bergen Weak Raise (0-6 hcp, 4-card support): 4.68%
Bergen Mixed Raise (7-9 hcp, 4-card support): 4.55%
Bergen Limit Raise (10-12 hcp, 4-card support): 3.55%
Very Weak Natural Jump (2-5 hcp, 6-7 in suit, at most 2-card support): 0.91%
Constructive Natural Jump (4-8 hcp, 6-7 in suit, at most 2-card support): 2.11%
Invitational Natural Jump (9-11 hcp, 6-7 in suit, at most 2-card support): 1.41%

The Bergen raises are a lot more frequent; of course this doesn't necessarily mean they are a better treatment, since you have to compare your scores. I'd expect that most hands where you'd use a Bergen raise you would get the same result without one, whereas the same tends not to be true of the "unshowable" natural range.

[akwoo]

I played invitational+ fit jumps (yes, even in non-competitive auctions) for about a month (something like 4 or 5 sessions) once before my then-partner decided he liked Bergen.

If I remember correctly, we defined it as 4-5 or 5-4 in trump and the suit bid, 8+ hcp in the two suits, and 10+ hcp overall if no singleton (5431 is much better than 5422 in this situation).

Frequency is quite low (I think it came up only once for us), but it will get you to thin vulnerable games (e.g. AKxxx; x; Kxxx; Jxx opposite Qxxx; xxx; AQxxx; x) that are hard to find otherwise.

Btw, awm's numbers are quite inflated because they are not counting the possibility that opponents come in; this is quite frequent especially with the weaker hands.

[fromageGB]

I think the OP question has been answered, but don't forget, Bergen type raises are in themselves just as pre-emptive as WJOs. As they occur far more often, that is a big plus. Moreover, it must be remembered that Bergen type raises are not just for reaching the right slam or game, they are very useful in enabling the correct action when 4th seat does enter the bidding. As partner has described both his length and his pretty exact strength, opener is well placed to make a penalty X, or knows it is correct to pass or to compete in the expectation of going off one as a sacrifice, or in the expectation of making. The Bergen raise has given him better judgement.

Contrary to blackshoe's opinion, I think it is a great asset in the partscore battle.

[fromageGB]

wank, on 2012-November-02, 16:53, said:

there's a question of definition here. in England at least, a weak jump shift is played as about 4-8. this makes more sense to us, as now repeating your suit is invitational, i.e. about 9-11, meaning we can stay low on misfitting invitational hands.

Nice! So 1♠ 3♦ something 4♦ is "staying low on misfitting hands". I like my low to be a little lower.

[Vampyr]

fromageGB, on 2012-November-04, 04:38, said:

Nice! So 1♠ 3♦ something 4♦ is "staying low on misfitting hands". I like my low to be a little lower.

I think w**k might have been referring to bidding the suit 1/1 and then repeating it, rather than jumping and then repeating it.