[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     Pass
 1♦    Pass  2♠    Pass
 Pass  Pass  

what does my 2!S bid mean in 2/1? or what can it mean with different agrements?

[hrothgar]

Playing 2/1 GF, there are two reasonable definitions for responder's 2♠ bid.

1. Weak Jump Shift
2. Strong Jump Shift

Personally, I am a fan of strong jump shifts over minor suit openings. With this sadi and done, I would never consider a SJS with you hand, A SJS shift should show one of three different hand types

A. A single suited hand with a self sufficient suit
B. A two suited hand with support for partner
C. A NT oriented hand

Holding your hand, you should respond 1♠, followed by some form of checkback.

[pclayton]

Standard 2/1 (if there is such an animal) uses WJS over minors.

I know of no 2/1 system that uses strong jump shifts; perhaps one exists.

[inquiry]

Richard is right for the most part. Most 2/1 players play a jump shift as either strong or weak (by prior agreement). But he is wrong when he says there is only two reasonable definitions. I have played it as

• Strong - ala Goldman Jump shift as described by richard
  
• strong - fair suit, game forcing values (not as good as first option)
  
• Weak
  
• invitational with fair suit (think modest weak two type bid
  
• Fit jump (showing hte bid suit and a fit for partners suit, either forcing to partners suit or not forcing by agreement)
  
• mini splinter
  
• I am sure there are more, but you get the idea.....

One thing you need to do is establish with your partner what a jump shift would be. I think the tendency now is for it to be weaker rather than stronger, but if you forced me to guess what it would mean without a specific agreement, I would guess "strong" would be the right answer. It is like 1M-3M... many (most) experts and advanced players now play this weak and preemptive. This is the way I play... but if I sat down with someone and all we agreed was 2/1, I would assume this was limit raise. The minute we agreed to bergen or jacoby 2NT Plus, the raise, without discussing, becomes weak and preemptive.

Ben

[hrothgar]

pclayton, on Nov 30 2004, 12:42 AM, said:

Standard 2/1 (if there is such an animal) uses WJS over minors.

I know of no 2/1 system that uses strong jump shifts; perhaps one exists.

There are any number of systems that combine 2/1 game force with Strong Jump Shifts.

My copy of Hardy recommends Weak Jump Shifts but states that there are optional and that SJS may be used.

Matula's Polish Club also allows strong jump shifts as an option.

[pclayton]

Won't engage the debate on the playability of strong jump shifts, but will say that are somewhat redundant.

Ben didn't mention one of the most common uses: Reverse Flannery, which I play and fills a needed hole in respnding.

And I believe the structured strong jump shifts are called "Soloway", not Goldman.

[hrothgar]

pclayton, on Nov 30 2004, 12:58 AM, said:

Won't engage the debate on the playability of strong jump shifts, but will say that are somewhat redundant.

I agree that SJS over majors really aren't necessary in a 2/1 GF system.
However, I find them very useful over 1♣ and 1♦ openings

[luke warm]

i like the reverse flannery thing also... a good way to bid those pesky types

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Nov 29 2004, 05:58 PM, said:

Won't engage the debate on the playability of strong jump shifts, but will say that are somewhat redundant.

Ben didn't mention one of the most common uses: Reverse Flannery, which I play and fills a needed hole in respnding.

And I believe the structured strong jump shifts are called "Soloway", not Goldman.

You are correct...soloway is right. Sorry. I also play reverse flannery by responder (RFR), as well as over 1♣ and 1♦, I play jump to 2♠ as weak. This allows me to fill in the gapping holes by my new minor forcing by OPENER even if not a reverse. Partners RFR hands are out, so 1m=1S=2om=2H is better than rfr. And, 1m-1s-2om-2S has implication for a minor fit as well as five spades... since you didn't bid 2S to begin with or rfr.

Ben

[HeartA]

hrothgar, on Nov 29 2004, 04:27 PM, said:

Playing 2/1 GF, there are two reasonable definitions for responder's 2♠ bid.

1. Weak Jump Shift
2. Strong Jump Shift

Personally, I am a fan of strong jump shifts over minor suit openings. With this sadi and done, I would never consider a SJS with you hand, A SJS shift should show one of three different hand types

A. A single suited hand with a self sufficient suit
B. A two suited hand with support for partner
C. A NT oriented hand

Holding your hand, you should respond 1♠, followed by some form of checkback.

I play Strong jump shift, with A. and B. only.

[pclayton]

We've tweaked rev flannery a little: 2♥ and 2♠ are always the calls. A little easier on the memory.

2♦ over 1♣ is the limit raise as is 1♦ - 3♣. I've yet to figure out why pairs like the jump shift in the other minor as the forcing raise, although I guess you can PASS 1 minor - 2 minor if its exactly limit. Seems like a lot to give up to me.

[luke warm]

bergen played 1c/3d and 1d/3h as his forcing raises... only thing i didn't like about his was 1c/2nt was limit in clubs (1d/3c was diamond limit)... was easy to remember, and had added advantage of allowing 1c/2c or 1d/2d to be more natural... but not really sure how important that is

[EricK]

hrothgar, on Nov 29 2004, 10:15 PM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 30 2004, 12:58 AM, said:

Won't engage the debate on the playability of strong jump shifts, but will say that are somewhat redundant.

I agree that SJS over majors really aren't necessary in a 2/1 GF system.
However, I find them very useful over 1♣ and 1♦ openings

SJS at the 2 level seem to me a natural adjunct to a 2/1 system!

1♠ 2♥ is GF with 5♥ and 1♦ 2♥ would be GF with 5♥ too!

And note how much easier the follow ups to this latter sequence are often going to be: if opener is 54 in ♠♦ it will start 1♠ 2♥ 3♦ (and we are at 3 level) or 1♠ 2♥ 2♠ (and we haven't mentioned our ♦ yet). But if he were 45, it would go 1♦ 2♥ 2♠

If you make this agreement that all GF hands bid at the 2-level immediately, then you can make 1-level responses non-forcing (which is better in principle), and you can get rid of all your complex XYZ conventions.

Eric

[Flame]

Almost everyone i know play jumps as weak.

[Free]

Flame, on Nov 30 2004, 11:12 AM, said:

Almost everyone i know play jumps as weak.

Lol, almost everyone I know irl plays this GF with 6+ card. However, online most play it weak...

[Flame]

Free, on Nov 30 2004, 05:36 AM, said:

Flame, on Nov 30 2004, 11:12 AM, said:

Almost everyone i know play jumps as weak.

Lol, almost everyone I know irl plays this GF with 6+ card. However, online most play it weak...

In my country i dont think you will find one who play this strong, the few i know are from this forum. I dont know which is better, both ways have their adv and disadv, but i can say one thing against playing strong which is, we all know how to bid after 1x-1s its like a second nature to most of us, but after 2sp its going to be harder, and there will be some misunderstadning, or even bad judgment on an unpracticed sequences. So like other rare bids you better practice them outside the bidding table.

[the hog]

Strong jumps shifts are excellent when they come up and if they are not abused. They make slam bidding significantly easier. However the relativley low frequency of occurrence means that the technically inferior weak jump shift is probably a better system adjunct.