[the hog]

Antrax, on 2012-October-17, 01:42, said:

Huh? Why would it be non-forcing? Responder is still unlimited.
That being said, with a strong hand, you can afford to show suits in their natural order, i.e. longest first.

Of course it is non forcing. That is bridge basics. Opener has limited the strength of his hand. you have shown 5H and 4Ds and offered opener a choice of where to play.

[the hog]

gwnn, on 2012-October-17, 07:36, said:

Depends on the sequence

1C-1S
2C-2H

is one bid which most people play as forcing, for instance (natural but sometimes 3 cards). 2D is also played as forcing although many pairs use it artificially (in which case 2H can be natural).

YOU might play this as forcing. MOST people don't. 3 cards? Never!

[kenberg]

AyunuS, on 2012-October-17, 01:09, said:

I once was playing a hand where I had a really good hand. I don't remember exactly other than that I had 7 diamonds, 5 hearts, and a singleton A of some other suit, and I think I had 3 total A and some other good stuff, but I don't know the details. I had for so long been hoping to maybe someday get dealt something like the ultimate hand, and though I don't remember it exactly, I think this hand wasn't too far away from being one. In any case, my partner opened 1♣ and I thought it was best to show a 5-card major first if I had one, so I responded 1♥ and then he bid 1NT. I didn't think he'd use NMF so I just bid 2♦ as I figured he'd at least take it as forcing, and then he jumped to 3NT. I don't like it when players bid this kind of thing since it makes me wonder if their hand really might be stronger than the 12-14 I normally consider the 1NT response, so I didn't very well know what he had. In any case, I still knew we should have a diamond fit since he bid NT before I ever showed diamonds, and so I figured he'd have at least 2 of them, and iirc I made some ridiculous-looking diamond bid, and then he booted me from the table and wouldn't even let me play the hand. I was so disappointed since I'd been searching for so long and had so rarely ever gotten hands even this good that I really wanted to play it. I looked it up in the results afterwards and remember whoever showed up did make the contract that I had bid. In any case, does someone have some words of wisdom as to how I can not get booted from the table apparently just for an apparently bad bid?

First, you have to accept that there are a lot of people who know a lot less than they think they do and boot you or leave as soon as something goes wrong.

However, you have some misconceptions. Before nmf, 1C-1H-1N-2D was played as non-forcing. Think about it. Sometimes you have shape and a six count. You respond in your five card hear suit, partner bids 1NT on his 12-14, maybe you have five diamonds so probably you have a diamond fit, or maybe a heart fit, you bid 2D, pass or correct. That was the idea. So, in theory at least, a non-forcing 2D could be useful. Of course this almost never happened. Partner has 12-14, you have a weak hand, the opponents most likely have been in with their spades long before you ever got to your second call. Usually anyway. So 2D became artificial and forcing. Almost everyone plays this, or some variant. . Partner presumably took 2D as nmf with an invit hand or better, and with his max just decided to make the practical call of 3NT.

I suggest that you put on your profile that you prefer SAYC with nmf, Capp, standard leads and carding. Or skip the Capp if you prefer. Then follow it. You will still have rude parnters leaving in a huff, I have never found a way to prevent this, but you will also have people who like playing the same way and will stick around even when things go wrong.

Good luck.

By the way: 1C-1D-1NT-2H is game forcing (or at least forcing, and I think most would say game forcing) and shows more diamonds than hearts. If you had, as you say, a really good hand with more diamonds than hearts, that would be a good way to bid it. Bidding diamonds, then the higher ranking hearts, is a totally different situation from 1C-1S-1N-2H which most play as pass or correct, a weak hand with five spades and four hearts.

[Vampyr]

the hog, on 2012-October-17, 18:17, said:

YOU might play this as forcing. MOST people don't. 3 cards? Never!

I think that most people do, actually, unless they play some sort of artificial continuations over 2♣.

[aguahombre]

Vampyr, on 2012-October-17, 19:10, said:

I think that most people do, actually, unless they play some sort of artificial continuations over 2♣.

I have nearly given up trying to guess what most people do.

1C-1S
2C...I will stick my neck out and suggest pass is non-forcing and 2S is non-forcing for most people (Although the 2S rebid actually has a G.F. contingent). We happen to choose 2D as the forcing alertable noise similar to NMF, but 2H natural and passable.

[barmar]

aguahombre, on 2012-October-17, 19:23, said:

I have nearly given up trying to guess what most people do.

You must have a really hard time when you use the partnership desk. Or do you only play with your regular partner?

[aguahombre]

barmar, on 2012-October-17, 19:35, said:

You must have a really hard time when you use the partnership desk. Or do you only play with your regular partner?

Never used one. If I did, I wouldn't try to guess what most people do..just what that person would do. There are ways of doing that without taking a poll of the entire world of Bridge and taking into account all players' levels of experience and competence, rather just that one's.

[Vampyr]

aguahombre, on 2012-October-17, 19:23, said:

I have nearly given up trying to guess what most people do.

1C-1S
2C...I will stick my neck out and suggest pass is non-forcing and 2S is non-forcing for most people (Although the 2S rebid actually has a G.F. contingent). We happen to choose 2D as the forcing alertable noise similar to NMF, but 2H natural and passable.

Yes, if you play 2♦ artificial then you can play new suits as NF. But since that is not a majority treatment, a sizeable portion (a large majority IMO) of people who don't have this available will play all new suits as forcing.

[Bbradley62]

barmar, on 2012-October-17, 12:37, said:

That's my understanding as well. The other way to read it is that the new minor is the ONLY forcing rebid by responder. So better names might have been "New Minor Artificial" or "Only New Minor Forcing". But it's too late, the name we have is what everyone knows these days (just as "Unusual 2NT" is not very unusual).

Funny... I just came across this in a 1982 NYTimes column by Alan Truscott:

Quote

Playing North was Esta Van Zandt of Houston, who recently captured the National Mixed Pairs title. She had a difficult bid on the second round, and employed a device usually referred to, rather ambiguously, as "fourth-suit forcing." Since everyone plays such a bid as forcing, a better name would be "fourth-suit artificial."

[gwnn]

the hog, on 2012-October-17, 18:17, said:

YOU might play this as forcing. MOST people don't. 3 cards? Never!

OK I know that 2001 BWS is kind of outdated but at least I don't use that many caps (added emphasis+changed © to c) ).

Quote

After a one-level suit response and opener’s simple same-suit rebid:

a) a third-suit bid that is a reverse or a three-level bid is forcing to game;

b) a third-suit non-reverse at the two level is forcing for one round, and responder may pass if opener bids two of responder’s first suit or three of opener’s suit;

c) a non-reverse jump to three of a third suit is natural (five-five or more) and game-forcing (to invite with the same shape, responder bids two and then three of the third suit);

d) a bid one level above a game-forcing third-suit bid is a splinter.