[GHS_K_Chow]

If you're against a weak field (thus would want to play the same card as them but make better judgement calls or beat them in declarer play or defense), is there any merit to playing a different system in 4th seat.

Is there an opinion that a more limited system in 4th seat?

ie. Playing 2/1 to match the weak field, is there any reasoning that a limited opener system (like precision or polish club in 4th seat) or a different system (fantunes in 4th) might have gains?


- Edit -
If this belongs in non-natural system discussion, please move it for me. I was unsure where to place this topic.

[semeai]

It makes sense that you'd want a system that does well on 16-20-ish hands in 4th seat, but that's true in any field. In a weak field the gain from playing a different system that is good on these hands would presumably be lower (and possibly negative) unless you believe the system is great at getting weak opponents to make unforced errors. In that case, though, you'd want to play it in any seat against a weak field.

Maybe instead play 2/1 but add gazzilli and/or other conventions that help out the 16-20 hands in 4th seat if you don't play them generally

[Cyberyeti]

Fantunes would work OK, I'm also not sure whether playing strong Acol style 2s has additional merit in 4th.

[kenrexford]

Yes. FOr one, intermediate two bids make a ton of sense, in whatever form you like. Why waste space for the narrow weak two when there is so much more important to do with intermediate two-bids.

As a simple example, suppose that all two-bids (other than 2♣) showed a minimum opening hand as far as HCP strength with the suit bid and clubs:

2♦ = minors, 10-14 HCP
2♥ = Hearts plus clubs, 10-14 HCP
2♠ = Spades plus clubs, 10-14 HCP

This would help system structure in many obvious ways, such as eliminating the problem of the "high reverse," offering good description, allowing any of these suits opened at the one-level followed by 2♣ to be a gadget (like Gazilli but less encumbered), etc.

If you made 2♦ instead show spades + diamonds, you would eliminate all high-reverse problems. Plus, that would make 1♠...2minor much sexier as far as options. E.g., 2♣ rebid as Gazilli-like, 2♦ as 5-4 majors, 2♥ as 5-5 majors, etc.

[CSGibson]

kenrexford, on 2012-October-16, 14:38, said:

Yes. FOr one, intermediate two bids make a ton of sense, in whatever form you like. Why waste space for the narrow weak two when there is so much more important to do with intermediate two-bids.

As a simple example, suppose that all two-bids (other than 2♣) showed a minimum opening hand as far as HCP strength with the suit bid and clubs:

2♦ = minors, 10-14 HCP
2♥ = Hearts plus clubs, 10-14 HCP
2♠ = Spades plus clubs, 10-14 HCP

This would help system structure in many obvious ways, such as eliminating the problem of the "high reverse," offering good description, allowing any of these suits opened at the one-level followed by 2♣ to be a gadget (like Gazilli but less encumbered), etc.

If you made 2♦ instead show spades + diamonds, you would eliminate all high-reverse problems. Plus, that would make 1♠...2minor much sexier as far as options. E.g., 2♣ rebid as Gazilli-like, 2♦ as 5-4 majors, 2♥ as 5-5 majors, etc.

You aren't going far enough. Intermediate 2s also indicates that 1S-1N-2S is 15-17/18, and that 1S-1N-3S should be forcing. There is no need for a fake jump shift after a 4th seat opening with intermediate 2 bids, all jump shifts show a 2nd suit.

I think there is a lot to be said for intermediate 2 bids in general, in 4th seat they are even better.

[MickyB]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-October-16, 14:03, said:

Fantunes would work OK

No. Opening 2m with 5m4M in 1st seat creates guesses for both sides. Opening 2m with 5m4M in fourth seat just creates guesses for your side.

IMO there's much more reason to play ART methods in 1st+2nd and natural in 3rd+4th. This is partly based on theory and partly because 4th seat openings are much rarer than 1st seat openings, so your 4th seat ART stuff would come up rarely.

[Cyberyeti]

MickyB, on 2012-October-16, 17:43, said:

No. Opening 2m with 5m4M in 1st seat creates guesses for both sides. Opening 2m with 5m4M in fourth seat just creates guesses for your side.

IMO there's much more reason to play ART methods in 1st+2nd and natural in 3rd+4th. This is partly based on theory and partly because 4th seat openings are much rarer than 1st seat openings, so your 4th seat ART stuff would come up rarely.

Yes, but the Fantunes 1 bids become much more frequent than the 2 bids in 4th.

[fromageGB]

CSGibson, on 2012-October-16, 16:27, said:

You aren't going far enough. Intermediate 2s also indicates that 1S-1N-2S is 15-17/18.

Not with Ken's 2-suited 2-bids, you do this only if they are single suited. I like Ken's suggestion, and assume the 2♦=♠+♦ variation is 5x4x minimum lengths. Sounds good.

[kenrexford]

fromageGB, on 2012-October-19, 08:37, said:

Not with Ken's 2-suited 2-bids, you do this only if they are single suited. I like Ken's suggestion, and assume the 2♦=♠+♦ variation is 5x4x minimum lengths. Sounds good.

2♦ = 5♠, 4-5♦, 10-14 HCP.
2♥ = 5♥, 4-5♣, 12-15 HCP (cansino, with max of 3 spades, hence higher range)
2♠ = 5♠, 4-5♣, 10-14 HCP

After 2♥ or 2♠ opening, 2NT/3♣ natural, non-forcing (2NT invites, though). After 2♠, 3♦ or 3♥ invites game if this is your stiff (Opener can try back after 3♦ with 3♥ if diamond stiff but minimum), 3♠ general invite. After 2♥, 3♦ invites if spade stiff, 2♠ forcing with either real spades or heart fit and desire to invite if Opener has diamond stiff.

After 2♦, 2♥ is like the 2♠ bid over 2♥ (natural or wanting to invite opposite stiff club); 3♣ invites opposite stiff spade (and hence perforce maximum).

If using this:

1♠-1NT-2♦ can be specialized as (1) spade-diamond two-suiter with extras, or (2) majors bust. Responder picks favorite major, assuming bust. If Opener actually has diamond-spade two-suiter with extras, he bids accordingly after the selection, including "mild extras" 2♠ conversion after 2♥ selection.

This allows 1♠-1NT-2♥ to show extras.

[fromageGB]

Nice, well thought out. Thanks, Ken.

[Fluffy]

weak field means that opponents are often weak, you can't pass out hands where you opponents have only made 1 or no mistakes, it is too dangerous. So you need to open lighter.

What about switching to 4cM?, strong club, neboulous diamond and intermediate 2x bids. But 2♣ never having 4cM, so 6cm and 5cM at the 2 level