[MickyB]

Phil, I think you mentioned a similar sequence recently - 1D-p-1H-p; 1N-2C as 5D4C. Not an idea I've come across before, but I like it, if only to stop one of my partners from wandering back in with 2C to show a hand too bad to overcall 2C or 3C the first time! Any pitfalls to this agreement, e.g. situations where it is unclear if it should apply?

[PhilKing]

MickyB, on 2012-October-15, 11:50, said:

Phil, I think you mentioned a similar sequence recently - 1D-p-1H-p; 1N-2C as 5D4C. Not an idea I've come across before, but I like it, if only to stop one of my partners from wandering back in with 2C to show a hand too bad to overcall 2C or 3C the first time! Any pitfalls to this agreement, e.g. situations where it is unclear if it should apply?

It applies to any delayed overcall in a live auction, and promises a good hand. In some situations it strongly suggest 55 rather than 54.

I agree that it's main benefit can be to stop partner bidding on trash. But let's say you are playing against the Hackett's or Price/Simpson (I am only telling you this because you are currently in the second division). They open 1♥ and you are 55 in the reds. You pass and it continues 1♠ p 1NT or 1♠ p 2♠. You now bid diamonds. The two level bid can be on a suitable 54, the three level would have to be 55. Doubling on either auction is three-suited take-out of spades.

In the auction here, 2♠ would logically show four spades and six clubs playing this method, or 45 if you are feeling very lucky.

[MrAce]

lalldonn, on 2012-October-15, 11:18, said:

Justin told me he thought for sure this was 4-6, I would have thought 5-5. I asked Geoff Hampson and he said 5-5 but also he always plays 2♣ over 1♣ as natural so for him there won't be a 4-6 often. I'm going to try to get more opinions.

I also would have bid 2♣ as natural previous round. Thats what i always talk to pds when opps are playing possible short clubs.

But i assume that was not available, so now it is close call for me. Knowing myself, i would probably bid it though, especially when my pdship agreed what it exactly shows. (2 NT i mean)

[bluecalm]

It doesn't look scary to me, should I be worried ?
The hand was tad too weak for vulnerable 2C opposite unpassed partner imo.
We obviously won't be 5-5 here as we would have either bid 2NT (if that show minors and we had suitable hand) or 1D round before.

Quote

I asked Geoff Hampson and he said 5-5

Really ?
What kind of hand passes 1C and bids 2NT now ? It is surely more useful for 6-4.

[aguahombre]

We didn't have the natural 2C/1C available, and we didn't have the delayed 2NT after passing 1C available for 4-6m. I think I am glad those options weren't there for the temptation at these colors.

Will take a guess that partner has 8 cards in the majors. I don't need to guess that partner did not want to bid at her first turn. If we could find the right minor to play, if there is a right minor to play, and if we can make exactly 3m and they exactly 2H we lose by not acting. Otherwise, we break-even or have a disaster.

[lalldonn]

Fred G and Curtis C both said 4-6.

[PhilKing]

Presumably Hampson sometimes forgets to overcall 1♦, so needs a delayed 2N as 55.

[gnasher]

MickyB, on 2012-October-15, 11:50, said:

Phil, I think you mentioned a similar sequence recently - 1D-p-1H-p; 1N-2C as 5D4C. Not an idea I've come across before, but I like it, if only to stop one of my partners from wandering back in with 2C to show a hand too bad to overcall 2C or 3C the first time! Any pitfalls to this agreement, e.g. situations where it is unclear if it should apply?

There is at least one auction where it's unclear what the implied suit is:

1♦-pass-1♥-pass
2♥-2♠

I think that could have either minor, but you might prefer to play that it's definitely diamonds.

And you'd need to define what a "live auction" is. For example, what about this one:

1♠-pass-1NT-pass
2♣-2♦

[Fluffy]

I can't believe someone can't overcall 1♦ with 5 and now wants to act, except if the diamonds are so horrible that they look like 4.

I would bid 2NT in a flash, but my opponents don't belong to this forum so not a big deal.

[PhilKing]

gnasher, on 2012-October-16, 01:59, said:

There is at least one auction where it's unclear what the implied suit is:

1♦-pass-1♥-pass
2♥-2♠

I think that could have either minor, but you might prefer to play that it's definitely diamonds.

And you'd need to define what a "live auction" is. For example, what about this one:

1♠-pass-1NT-pass
2♣-2♦

On the first, its the suit you could not show - so it's diamonds and spades. You are showing a good hand that could not act on the first round because they opened your suit. With clubs you make, of all things, a natural overcall on the first round.

On the second, why would that not be a live auction? They could have 18 opposite 11, and I could hardly imagine a worse time to bid 2♦ on a diamond only hand that was not srong enough to act earlier. In this one I would be 55, but it's not really a great auction for any overcall, so I would have to be very strong.

[gnasher]

I thought there was a second problem: if you decide to act, should you bid 2NT or 3♣?

The benefits of 2NT are obvious, but as Justin says it also makes it easier for them to catch you - LHO can double 2NT to show values, then RHO can double the final contract. And they might even be playing a double of a direct 3♣ as a game-try, or be uncertain as to whether it was.

[MickyB]

Bidding 2C over 1D holding 5C4M isn't great in my experience, so I can see passing then bidding to show both suits in one go as Gnasher suggested. I agree that the second auction isn't safe but showing a five-five fit with RHO doesn't seem that useful either.

It seems odd to decline to use our 2NT gadget on the original hand when our hand rates to play many tricks better in a 4-4 fit than a 6-1 fit, but maybe there's a case for it - you might be able to judge to remove to 3D yourself based on table presence.

[PhilKing]

MickyB, on 2012-October-16, 06:45, said:

Bidding 2C over 1D holding 5C4M isn't great in my experience, so I can see passing then bidding to show both suits in one go as Gnasher suggested. I agree that the second auction isn't safe but showing a five-five fit with RHO doesn't seem that useful either.

You have a delayed take-out double available with 4♠5♣ to show this hand or three-suited. You can play Two Spades as 45 46 with diamonds. I like 46 in this one. I prefer the 55 interpretation when you are potentially playing in RHO's 4 card major. Here, with 5♠5♦ you just overcall and then bid diamonds.

It's a potentially suicidal auction, so it has to show an unusual hand where we were stuck on the first round, otherwise you can't really have a good enough hand to act. Clearly Two Clubs on the first round with 45 shape is not ideal, but with a decent hand it's better than passing, and you don't always get a convenient way back into the auction.

[MickyB]

1S-P-1N-P; P-2H vs a strong NT/4cM pair. Not a live auction, but 5S4H sounds like a useful handtype to show. Thoughts?

[PhilKing]

MickyB, on 2012-October-16, 07:50, said:

1S-P-1N-P; P-2H vs a strong NT/4cM pair. Not a live auction, but 5S4H sounds like a useful handtype to show. Thoughts?

Agree it's probably best. Not in my definition though, I just play it as the bad overcall there! It would logically apply to two minor as well. 55 obviously possible as well, 54 only with good suits.