[Fluffy]

♠AQJ653
♥K4
♦J983
♣7


our side vulnerable, MPs, partner deals

1♥-(1♠)-pass-(2♦)
double-(pass)-??

[nigel_k]

2♠.

Passing the double could work but most of the field will be too high with our cards going for numbers of varying sizes so I am happy just playing a quiet 2♠.

[PhilKing]

I would normally pass, hoping for 300, 500, or 800.

At the dreaded MPs I guess I should bid 3NT.

[Fluffy]

nigel_k, on 2012-October-10, 13:12, said:

2♠.

Passing the double could work but most of the field will be too high with our cards going for numbers of varying sizes so I am happy just playing a quiet 2♠.

as far as I know 2♠ is 100% forcing at least

[lalldonn]

I think 2♠ is an attempt to play there, but this hand is way too good. We showed nothing and partner opened then showed extras. We are either passing his double or doing something strong. I am going to bid 3♦ then I will raise if he bids 3♥ or bid 3NT over 3♠. I could easily see passing his double but at this vul at mps I'm scared since I expect us to have a game.

[PhilKing]

Yep, I also play 2♠ as 0% forcing.

[dake50]

Haven't you pre-loaded this question?
I think very few would try trap pass at Vul v non.
I would already have tried 2NT over 1H (1S).
Aside. Can you ever expose a 1S psych overcall?

[PhilKing]

dake50, on 2012-October-10, 21:13, said:

Haven't you pre-loaded this question?
I think very few would try trap pass at Vul v non.
I would already have tried 2NT over 1H (1S).
Aside. Can you ever expose a 1S psych overcall?

I would pass over 1♠ for sure and I am willing to bet I am not in the minority.

You can expose the psyche by bidding 3♦ on the actual - that shows a penalty pass of a spade, as does 3NT and as does 2♠. If partner is 4504 he now knows they have psyched and can bid 4♦.

[mikeh]

Fluffy, on 2012-October-10, 15:22, said:

as far as I know 2♠ is 100% forcing at least

It shouldn't be.

Assuming double of 2♦ was takeout (and surely that is a universal treatment), we will always have several choices with a good hand, and no real choice with something like QJ108xx x xxxx xx.

When a call can be natural, it should be natural absent specific agreement otherwise. Here, it is obvious that there will be hands on which all we have are long spades and a weak hand.

As for the actual hand, I am not passing. LHO may well have 6 diamonds to take and rates to take one or two side tricks, so passing is probably settling for 100 on a good day and -180 (or 280) on a bad day.

Meanwhile we will usually have a decent plus available in hearts (I wouldn't even think of notrump....even if we stop/block diamonds, we may not be able to develop enough tricks).

So I choose 3♥...this must show a penalty pass of spades with about this degree of heart support, since we wouldn't play to penalize nv opps at the 1-level with 3 card support for partner, and we wouldn't have passed with a hand now worth jump raising unless we were previously playing for penalty.

[bluecalm]

4S is tempting here
It would be nice to check for 6 hearts and in case partner doesn't have them to play in 4S but I don't know if that's possible.

[JLOGIC]

mikeh, on 2012-October-11, 10:33, said:

So I choose 3♥...this must show a penalty pass of spades with about this degree of heart support, since we wouldn't play to penalize nv opps at the 1-level with 3 card support for partner, and we wouldn't have passed with a hand now worth jump raising unless we were previously playing for penalty.

This is very unclear to me. I would probably pass and bid 3H with xxx Qxx xxx Kxxx. I would also be tempted to do so and might on a hand like xxxx KQ xxx Qxxx. Partner has shown significant extras by doubling here after our pass, I really don't think 3H should show a trap pass of spades, it's not the same as coming alive all of the sudden if partner had shown nothing extra.

[MrAce]

JLOGIC, on 2012-October-11, 15:44, said:

This is very unclear to me. I would probably pass and bid 3H with xxx Qxx xxx Kxxx. I would also be tempted to do so and might on a hand like xxxx KQ xxx Qxxx. Partner has shown significant extras by doubling here after our pass, I really don't think 3H should show a trap pass of spades, it's not the same as coming alive all of the sudden if partner had shown nothing extra.

Justin, wouldn't you bid 2♥ over 1♠ with the first hand you gave ? I mean if it is good enough t o bid 3♥ after pd shows extras, why is it not good to just bid 2♥ at the first place ?

[gszes]

This is the ideal time to try a penalty pass at MP. We have no sure game
in what looks like a probable misfit hand. We have enough for game but
where will we settle?? At MP this is a poor risk vs reward proposition.

At IMPS i would prefer to use 3S to show a spade suit this good if that is
not available I would hazard a 3n call because the risk vs reward at IMPS is
much better than at MP.

I am unsure if bidding 2s to play is a good idea under the given conditions
---too many hands where you have something like Kxxxxx void xxxx xxx or
some such (or worse). We need some way to warn p we have a serious
problem here and we are trying to keep the bidding as low as possible.
2s is the best way to show this (when we cant bid 2h or 3c). We have
3d available as a cue bid for hands that are not broke and wish to throw in
a cue bid.

[dake50]

I would pass over 1♠ for sure and I am willing to bet I am not in the minority.

You can expose the psyche by bidding 3♦ on the actual - that shows a penalty pass of a spade, as does 3NT and as does 2♠. If partner is 4504 he now knows they have psyched and can bid 4♦.

*** Now how will you guard against a 300 penalty against your 620 or 630?
*** The very intent of a trap pass is to secure a penalty. That penalty will
*** be way cheap Vul v non.
*** Keen judgment is needed even at equal vul.
*** Yet you claim trap-pass strategy wins at adverse vul.
*** Justify YOUR thoughts - not assinate me as minority opinion.

[PhilKing]

dake50, on 2012-October-12, 09:34, said:

I would pass over 1♠ for sure and I am willing to bet I am not in the minority.

You can expose the psyche by bidding 3♦ on the actual - that shows a penalty pass of a spade, as does 3NT and as does 2♠. If partner is 4504 he now knows they have psyched and can bid 4♦.

*** Now how will you guard against a 300 penalty against your 620 or 630?
*** The very intent of a trap pass is to secure a penalty. That penalty will
*** be way cheap Vul v non.
*** Keen judgment is needed even at equal vul.
*** Yet you claim trap-pass strategy wins at adverse vul.
*** Justify YOUR thoughts - not assinate me as minority opinion.

Er, as I recall, you asked if OP had "pre-loaded the question" by lumbering us with the "trap pass" - your words. You stated it as a question, so naturally I assumed you wanted an answer. I said he hadn't, which is clearly an "assination" of some mystery sort. I had no idea of how small a minority when I did it, though.

I can't guard against 620 versus 300 all the time. Might one tentatively suggest that is a loaded question? But partner does not have to reopen with a double with an unsuitable hand. If he reopen with 2♥, I will bid 4, for instance. By passing I get useful untainted information. 2NT is truly sick.

Much of the time whe he doubles, we can't make game or can hold them to three tricks when we can.

[MrAce]

2NT over 1♠ ?

I ♥ this bar !

[lowerline]

Fluffy, on 2012-October-10, 11:51, said:

♠AQJ653
♥K4
♦J983
♣7


our side vulnerable, MPs, partner deals

1♥-(1♠)-pass-(2♦)
double-(pass)-??

Partner must have extra values for this double so I bid 3nt. Give partner this minimum x-AQxxxx-Qx-KQxx...

Steven