[Phil]

IMP pairs

---

[dwar0123]

Well, north certainly didn't. South maybe can go to game knowing the values will be well placed with rho, but that flat I can't really blame him for not going.

[mike777]

dwar0123, on 2012-October-08, 14:17, said:

Well, north certainly didn't. South maybe can go to game knowing the values will be well placed with rho, but that flat I can't really blame him for not going.

ditto

[JLOGIC]

The heart holding is bad, but everything else is good, I would just bid game with the south hand. I don't even think 3S is a game try, he is just showing a hand that has 4 spades and a minimum, maybe 3H should be a game try since south could double with hands that don't have a primary spade fit? Even then north would not bid game though, but I think 3H would be a reasonable bid instead of 4S, I think 3S is nuts.

[JLOGIC]

I guess worth noting that I probably make t/o Xs more than most people and bid 2S less than most people so maybe my perspective is skewed.

[lalldonn]

I don't think anyone underbid. It's a balanced 14 and a balanced 9, south would hate his heart holding, north would hate his trumps... I just don't see game normally being reached. I can see the logic of 3♥ as a game try, but I would not be confident in my partner reading it that way since it intuitively sounds very strong to double and cue bid, so I wouldn't blame south for not risking it. But if I knew that's how I was playing it then I would do it (and still miss game).

[kenrexford]

Many years ago, I ran a bunch of generated deals with 14 behind an opening hand with about 8 for advancer. I recommend doing this. You will bid games at imps much more often. Notice impact of tenaces and kings in the 14 count.

[aguahombre]

As South VUL at IMPs, would you take a shot at a spade game if you knew:

--Pard has 9 or 10 with spade support,
--The outstanding strength is bunched up on your right, and
--Pard is short in hearts, but Righty has length there? (This one is important)

If you would, raise your hand.
There is a way to know all those things legally, but nobody will like what they would have to do to find it out.

[rhm]

Would the bidding be any different if the hands were:


IMP pairs

---

ATB for overbidding to a hopeless 4♠

The fact that West did not raise hearts at these colors does not argue that it is North, who will be short in hearts

Rainer Herrmann

[Rossoneri]

I would probably miss it the same way as well.

[Codo]

I would play 3 ♠ in both examples- in Rainers with about a trick less then in Phils.

[han]

I would bid 1S with Rainer's example, not 2S.

[nigel_k]

My view about Jxx in opener's suit is this:

It makes your hand less suitable for a takeout double, so you need extra values to do that. The actual South hand is a minimum takeout double for me. But the reason Jxx is bad is that it reduces the likelihood you have a fit. Once a fit has been discovered this no longer matters. So, after the 2♠ bid, South needs to re-evaluate, realize they now have some values to spare, and bid accordingly.

[MrAce]

rhm, on 2012-October-09, 02:03, said:

Would the bidding be any different if the hands were:


IMP pairs

---

ATB for overbidding to a hopeless 4♠

The fact that West did not raise hearts at these colors does not argue that it is North, who will be short in hearts

Rainer Herrmann

I think N has an auto 1♠ bid in your example, i admit even with the original hand i would be tempted to bid 1♠ but end up bidding 2♠ KJT9 side suit which you know pd has at least 3 of them changes a lot.

[lalldonn]

I mean if you want an example just go KJxxx xx Jxx Axx or something. Part of what made these hands so good is none of partner's hand was the king of spades which would have been worth 0 tricks.

[MrAce]

lalldonn, on 2012-October-09, 14:34, said:

I mean if you want an example just go KJxxx xx Jxx Axx or something. Part of what made these hands so good is none of partner's hand was the king of spades which would have been worth 0 tricks.

Fyi, i would not be able to bid that game in OP.

[wank]

no. there's some pretty serious resulting going on here.

[MrAce]

wank, on 2012-October-09, 15:04, said:

no. there's some pretty serious resulting going on here.

Resulting ? In BBF ??? No way !!!

[gszes]

now for the minority report

I think N underbid . The 2s bid was very reasonable (conservative bid)
since you might easily be playing a 43 fit. This fact alone makes the bid
of 2s have a much wider range than normal.

3s makes no sense here except as an invitational bid. Asking p to bid
game if they are near the top of their expanded 2s bid. With any minimum
overcall S will just pass and leave further competitive bidding to N.

It is important for us to have x available as extra values with no 4 card
spade support. The availability of 3h here should have some use for us
and it may be best to use it to show exta values long clubs and an
inabililty/desire to bid 3n.

When S bids 3s N has to reevaluate. Their xx in hearts is a decent plus
the KJTx in dia is probably better than it looks because of the bidding.
The spades are poor but there is little/nothing in my hand that has gotten
worse because of the bidding and we will probably be able to play the
hand close to double dummy. All of these factors add up to accepting
a game invite.

[PhilKing]

I like the auction for the reasons Rainer made, even though his example hand is crackers.