[bluecalm]

---

2H is mandatory in Polish style (2N would be 15-17). After 3D the agreements end (it was pick-up partnership).
4D was a cuebid, no kickbacks and other stuff like that in this part of the world
Do you like my bidding so far ?
What now ?

I am interested in going a bit deeper here so I would like to discuss what would you do without double after 4S, what possible hands partner have and what kind of values he expects. I would really like to understand this position because as it turned out we had fundamental misunderstanding here so I would appreciate a bit more detailed answers than usual "X, wtp" (which I think are valuable nevertheless ).

[Fluffy]

I was driving to slam or at least to keycard after 4♠, now opps doubled and I Was able to make an ecouraging pass I feel tempted to do no further action, but I think I still have some extras.

The card I am hating is ♥K, partner can easilly be singleton and have no clue if the hand fits or not, but ♣AK are so mighty, and partner is missing them, I gotta try 4NT (Exclusion from spades hopefully) now.

[JLOGIC]

The danger is driving to slam when partner has Ax x AQJx QJxxxx (we can assume partner is at least 6-4, since he didnt bid 2N and has the SA).

That hand is pretty likely. So, if I bid 5C what hands am I worried about that will miss slam? Ax A Axxx Qxxxxx is an obvious hand type (a hand where partner has the HA so our HK is useful, and bad trumps where our good trumps will be a surprise, and bad diamonds when diamonds are not a concern). I think you might argue that over our pass (which shows interest) partner should just keycard over it, since he knows his HA is huge and it looks like LHO has spade values which means we have to have something.

It is not very precise, and I will mention that in general I think 4Ns being last train rather than keycard when our suit is clubs is better. If I had that available, I'd be happy to bid 4N with this hand. Overall, I would bid 5C, even though my first instinct was to keycard. 2146 is just really likely for partner in which case on a spade lead our HK is really garbage (and if our HK is not garbage our partner would bid more with both major suit aces after our 4H bid).

The reality is our hand is largely unlimited, so while it looks great with these minor suit cards, we could have a lot more, and partner really has to confirm the SA when he has it. I think of XX as regressive when he has the SA since he could also bid 4N once we've shown more interest. I considered that partner could sometimes bid 5C with the SA but I think that is unlikely.

I think the general guesswork we're going through is largely a function of 4N being keyard rather than last train. If you had a choice, foricng to slam and being able to bid KC, or being able to show a hand that is good but not great in context, which would you think is more valuable? Slam tries are always more common than slam forces, and with slam forces you have other options (cuebid beyond game showing a grand slam try). Sorry for this tangent, I know it's not a system thread, but I felt strongly enough to mention it.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I Was able to make an ecouraging pass

Quote

I think you might argue that over our pass (which shows interest)

It isn't clear to me why pass is encouraging and I wasn't sure how my pd would take it. Is it that standard ?

Quote

Ax A Axxx Qxxxxx

Maybe it should just bid 2NT instead of 3D ?

Quote

It is not very precise, and I will mention that in general I think 4Ns being last train rather than keycard when our suit is clubs is better.

I like this idea, keycard with clubs is not too useful anyway usually, thanks for mentioning it.

Quote

I think of XX as regressive when he has the SA since he could also bid 4N once we've shown more interest

Are you referring to our pass again ? I missed that pass should promise a good hand and it's still not obvious to me. I thought usual agreements about bidding after doubled cuebid apply (pass = nothing, bid = Qx/x/).

[yin970902]

If use turbo
I will bid 4nt to mean 2 key card,
or I will bid 5♣.

[gnasher]

I think I've done enough already. I've already showed suitability by bidding 4♣, and not having ♥A is pretty bad.

[rhm]

bluecalm, on 2012-October-07, 13:30, said:

---

2H is mandatory in Polish style (2N would be 15-17). After 3D the agreements end (it was pick-up partnership).
4D was a cuebid, no kickbacks and other stuff like that in this part of the world
Do you like my bidding so far ?

No, but it may be forced by your "Polish style" of agreements.
You have not given very precise information about your hand.

Quote

What now ?

When somebody asks

Quote

Do I have enough to go for a slam here ?

The answer is invariably No.

If you held
♠JT,♥AT8532,♦K5,♣AK9

I would say yes, but you would not ask.

Rainer Herrmann

[bluecalm]

Quote

by your "Polish style" of agreements.

You make it sound like it's some weird style or something so let me explain:
Polish and Italian players including all top pairs from those countries (at some point in time, Bocchi - Madala probably play some art system now) play that 2M after 2/1 is 12-14 without 4card between 2M and 2C (here diamonds). Italians include also 15-21 with 6 card major there (Polish players usually bid 3M with that). Also direct 3C (after 2C) is 15+ with 4+clubs.
Your example suggests you are not familiar with this style at all as hands with 6 hearts would bid 3H after 3D, surely ones without ♠ stopper.

Quote

I've already showed suitability by bidding 4♣, and not having ♥A is pretty bad.

Yeah, that's my reason to making this thread. I don't have a perfecto, on the other hand I have 3 key cards (AK♣ and K♦) while I could have something like: Jx KQTxx xxx AKx or even Jx AQJxx Jxx Kxx. It seems to me that the hand is way above average when it comes to slam prospects but it's not perfect for sure. Now the question is if we should accept only with perfect hands or with just decent ones in the context and if partner should make a slam try hunting for this perfect hand or he should have more.

[gnasher]

I don't agree that you could have Jx KQTxx xxx AKx or Jx AQJxx Jxx Kxx. Both of those hands would hedge with 3♠ over 3♦.

[kayin801]

The 4♣ and pass calls are both pretty forward going (could have bid 3♠ and 5♣ instead) as Justin and Andy said. Furthermore partner knows that we don't have a spade control but we have still made two forward going moves. This could be a situation where either solid hearts or the diamond K will make the hand for him. If we had both we'd probably be making a grand move, but surely we've indicated one at this point. It's not like he's forced to pass over 5♣ so I'd just bid that and let him raise to 6 if he can since he has the info he needs now.

FWIW since we still have a wide range to our hand I would consider it mandatory for partner to XX with the spade A and would consider other moves forward going but denying a 1st round control. Though maybe since we haven't been able to take control of the auction after partner's revealing sequence that should indicate that we are more towards the minimum of our range. I always get fuzzy on those sort of inferences.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I don't agree that you could have Jx KQTxx xxx AKx or Jx AQJxx Jxx Kxx. Both of those hands would hedge with 3♠ over 3♦.

Yeah, I was thinking about it. It seemed to me that we should have at least Qx/Jxx for that so partner could bid 3NT with Qx himself. I am worried that Qx A AQxx Qxxxxx will be clear 3NT for him now.
What do you think 3S call should show ?

Quote

The 4♣ and pass calls are both pretty forward going (could have bid 3♠ and 5♣ instead)

So you are suggesting that 3S call is just bad hand and nothing about spade holding ?

Quote

as Justin and Andy said.

I see you guys all agree on that. It isn't obvious to me. Why is pass after X forward going ?

Quote

still made two forward going moves

At the time I thought I didn't make even one forward going move, the hand would be much easier to me if I thought 4C is forward going let alone pass.

[rhm]

bluecalm, on 2012-October-08, 04:18, said:

You make it sound like it's some weird style or something so let me explain:
Polish and Italian players including all top pairs from those countries (at some point in time, Bocchi - Madala probably play some art system now) play that 2M after 2/1 is 12-14 without 4card between 2M and 2C (here diamonds). Italians include also 15-21 with 6 card major there (Polish players usually bid 3M with that). Also direct 3C (after 2C) is 15+ with 4+clubs.
Your example suggests you are not familiar with this style at all as hands with 6 hearts would bid 3H after 3D, surely ones without ♠ stopper.

well on the one hand you ask:

Quote

Do you like my bidding so far ?

on the other hand you seem to imply that all your bids have been forced by methods.
What's the point of asking in the first place then?

I said

Quote

No, but it may be forced by your "Polish style" of agreements.

I understand you would like to hear "what great methods and great judgment so far".
But given after having an uncontested sequence to 4♠ we can not even agree whether this is a good or bad hand for this sequence, I just can not bring myself to make such a statement.

Rainer Herrmann

[bluecalm]

Quote

on the other hand you seem to imply that all your bids have been forced by methods.

No, only up to 2H. I am very interested in what 3S should show for example. If it should be just minimum hand then I should surely bid that I thought at the time that it should be half stopper in spades which I am now trying to investigate asking gnasher and kayin801 to explain.
You comments are rude, read again the question again. You seem like clueless troll here and I know you are not so maybe you are in bad mood or something but I am irritated but tone of your comments.

[rhm]

bluecalm, on 2012-October-08, 08:29, said:

No, only up to 2H. I am very interested in what 3S should show for example. If it should be just minimum hand then I should surely bid that I thought at the time that it should be half stopper in spades which I am now trying to investigate asking gnasher and kayin801 to explain.
You comments are rude, read again the question again. You seem like clueless troll here and I know you are not so maybe you are in bad mood or something but I am irritated but tone of your comments.

No I am not rude, only provocative. I do not quite understand your point.
If I understand your methods you are not supposed to bypass 3♥ if you hold any six cards in hearts. (not my style for sure after having rebid hearts already)
I suppose you would have raised clubs immediately with 5 hearts and 4 clubs.
You would have bid notrump holding 5332 with 15-17 on your methods.
So what else can you have but 12-14 HCP and 3 good clubs when you bid 4♣ now and the only distributions you seem to be able to have at this point in your methods are the one you actually held or 3♠-5♥-2♦-3♣.
I agree with you that your spades were too weak and your hand too good for 3♠(above average number of controls in partner's suit).
However, as other pointed out, the ♥K is a dubious card on this bidding.
I still would give up and bid 5♣ now.

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

bluecalm, on 2012-October-08, 07:52, said:

Yeah, I was thinking about it. It seemed to me that we should have at least Qx/Jxx for that so partner could bid 3NT with Qx himself. I am worried that Qx x AKQx Qxxxxx will be clear 3NT for him now.
What do you think 3S call should show ?

It should be like fourth-suit forcing: it shows a hand that isn't suitable for 3♥, 3NT, 4♣ or 4♦. That might have half a spade stop or no spade stop.

Yes, you might reach 3NT with Jx KQTxx xxx AKx opposite Qx x AKQx Qxxxxx, but (a) the opponents might have bid spades, (b) we can't make any game, so who cares? What's more important is to reach 3NT with Jx KQTxx xxx AKx opposite Qxx x AKQx Qxxxx and 4♥ with Jx KQTxx xxx AKx opposite Qx Jx AKQx Qxxxx.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I suppose you would have raised clubs immediately with 5 hearts and 4 clubs.

If you mean after 2C then no, only 15+hcp (very good 14 maybe) raise to 3C immediatelly. 5H-4C hand with 12-14hcp bids 2H as well as 5-3-3-2 hand in 12-14 range. This is "Polish style" I was referring to.

Quote

not my style for sure after having rebid hearts already

Yeah this is style difference, that's why I said that 2H is compulsory in Polish/Italian style with minimum hand (if you don't have 4 diamonds). All bids above 2H show extras.

Quote

So what else can you have but 12-14 HCP and 3 good clubs when you bid 4♣ now and the only distributions you seem to be able to have at this point in your methods are the one you actually held or 3♠-5♥-2♦-3♣.

I can have 4 clubs. 2-5-2-4/1-5-3-4 etc.
Maybe I should bid 3S now with 2-5-3-3 etc as gnasher is suggesting. I actually like it and I think it makes a lot of sense it just was against my intuition at the time (which was that it promises half stopper).

Quote

I agree with you that your spades were too weak and your hand too good for 3♠(above average number of controls in partner's suit).
However, as other pointed out, the ♥K is a dubious card on this bidding.
I still would give up and bid 5♣ now.

I agree that if 4C has any forward going implications I should bid 5C now. The cost of this is that we are in hopeless 3NT sometimes or we miss good 3NT (if partner doesn't bid 3N with Qx).

Quote

opposite Qxx x AKQx Qxxxx

I feel this hand should bid 2NT instead of 3D. Do you agree with that ?

Quote

opposite Qx Jx AKQx Qxxxx.

Wouldn't this hand bid 3NT after 3S ?
Can you describe how responder reacts to 3S bid ?

[lalldonn]

gnasher, on 2012-October-08, 09:04, said:

It should be like fourth-suit forcing: it shows a hand that isn't suitable for 3♥, 3NT, 4♣ or 4♦. That might have half a spade stop or no spade stop.

Yes, you might reach 3NT with Jx KQTxx xxx AKx opposite Qx x AKQx Qxxxxx, but (a) the opponents might have bid spades, (b) we can't make any game, so who cares? What's more important is to reach 3NT with Jx KQTxx xxx AKx opposite Qxx x AKQx Qxxxx and 4♥ with Jx KQTxx xxx AKx opposite Qx Jx AKQx Qxxxx.

Although I agree with your general points, most of your examples for partner (in particular the last two) look like 2NT bids to me on the second round, not 3♦ bids. For me 3♦ promises at least 4-6, but even if you will ever do it with 4-5 that hand should not have bad clubs and a spade card. On those two examples I would bid 1♥ 2♣, 2♥ 2NT, 3♣ 3♦, 3♠ then on the first one responder would bid 3NT, and on the second one responder would bid 4♥. You might slightly disagree with those specifics but 2NT certainly leaves plenty of room for exploration with 2245 and 3145 hands for responder.

[PhilKing]

I prefer 3♠ to show three to an honour here - typically Axx. I don't think partner ever really has Qxx here, since he had a forcing 2NT available. For me 3♦ shows a suit-oriented hand, so I only want to get no trumps back in the game when a) I have enough in spades to bid it myself or b) when I need partner to have say Qx to make the prospect better than playing in a suit.

As bid, the hand is an advert for an encouraging 4NT.

[rhm]

deleted

[kayin801]

bluecalm, on 2012-October-08, 07:52, said:

At the time I thought I didn't make even one forward going move, the hand would be much easier to me if I thought 4C is forward going let alone pass.

See what Andy and Josh said about 3♠, we need a way to attempt 3NT. If we made our ♣9 the ♠9 I'd try 3♠ here. 4♣ would show some extra interest in going forward, certainly better than a direct 5♣.

You can play 5♣ instead of p over the X of 4♠ as forward going while pass is neutral, but you're leaving partner less room to take a call, which makes pass more forward going than a direct 5♣ IMO (or at least it should be). As others say, 4NT here should be a 2nd round spade control so 5♣ is just "STFU p" and pass says "think about going forward with a spade control.